Noppeid free-minds foorumist teemast what are the furtherst mosque and the sacred mosque
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=16931.0What is the true Qiblah?It is the direction that when you face, you are on the straight path and the foolish people will ask you "what made you turn away from the previous direction that you were on?" (see 2:142). It is the truth from our lord.
What is the Sacred Mosque and what is the Fartherst Mosque?A “masjid” is an institution of “sujud”.
The inviolable institution of "sujud"/obedience is where people institute obedience of the god, which is of course inviolable.
The farthest institution of "sujud"/obedience is where there is maximum obedience of the god, which is at heaven.
Aren't we splitting into sects (and therefore going against the teachings of the Qur'an) if we change our Qiblah and Site of Pilgramige from ~99.999% of Muslims?The Sunnis and Shias follow the same physical direction but are divided into sects. Jews face Jerusalem but are not united with brother Layth or anyone who advocates Jerusalem as a direction for prayer. This is empirical proof that physical direction cannot unite anyone and can’t differentiate those who have faith from the hypocrites. We can only be united on the direction to the truth from our lord.
Dosen't the Qur'an say that we will be protected in his Mosque (Jerusalem dosen't seem very safe!!!)?Yes, whoever (not just “we”) enters the real house of the god (the real one where none is taken as partner with the god) will certainly be safe. Neither the Mosque in Jerusalem nor the one in Mecca are safe. For example, you would probably be harassed or worse stoned to death by an angry mob if you go there and ask the above questions. Trying to find the direction to the truth threatens the false partners that are taken with the god.
If you turn away from the physical direction where other people pray, whether it is Jerusalem or Mecca, you will certainly be asked by the foolish people “what turned you away from the direction that you were on?” The foolish people brush off the fact that the god is everywhere and we don’t need to turn to any particular physical direction to pray to him. On the other hand, to pray or do anything in our lives to serve the god, we certainly need to turn to the truth from him.
"al-masjid al-haram" is not a physical place but is an institution much like "government" is an institution and not a physical place.
On the other hand, "al-bayt al-haram" is a physical place but not a specific physical place. It is any physical place where the criterion in 22:26 is met. This is where we can invite people with the feast ("hajj").
"Safa and Marwa are among the rites of God, so for those who make major or minor pilgramge to the House it is no offence to circulate between the two."2:158
I understand the House to be the Ka'ba. Is the Ka'ba and Safa and Marwa in Jeru or Mecca? Surely if these locations are mentioned there is most definitely are location to perform these rights, we can't just choose any random hill or Temple if they are given names. Please any comments on this would be greatly appreciated, not just links to other topics please They are not meaningless names. They are common nouns that have meanings. You can even find those meanings in Classical Arabic dictionaries. The common noun "safa" means livestock lined up for slaughter and "marwa" means the stone on which they are cooked. You can even find a similar word in the plural "sawaf" in 22:36 which is used to talk about animals lined up for slaughter. You can also find that in 22:36 the livestock are being described as "sha3air allah", the same exact expression that is wrongly translated in your post as "the rites of God". In fact 90% of the passages that talk about the feast/"hagg" are talking about animal sacrifice and the main worldly purpose of the feast/"hagg" is given as "to eat from the livestock and feed the needy". Sounds like a feast to me.
Also, the concept of "hagg" is not a new concept. It has been around since Abraham. Such annual feasts were common and the people of the book had them. On the other hand, none of the people of the book went to or even heard about a place named Mecca with a stone cube and a couple of special hills or spun seven times around a stone of any sort. In fact, the word "hagg" in the Old Testament means "feast":
From:
http://www.infobot.org/factpacks/old_test_meanings.factHaggai => feast
Haggiah => the Lord's feast
Haggith => rejoicing
But the main thing I understand about Pilgrimage is this:
"We appointed acts of devotion for every community; for them to celebrate God's name over the livestock He provided for them: your God is One, so devote yourselves to Him."Exactly. It is about food (livestock). It is not a pilgrimage. It is a feast.
Facing a certain direction to me is only for unity purposes. Just like a choir are told to sing in tune because it brings harmony and it sounds pleasant, we can feel this unity and harmony if we all pray to a specific direction in a mosque or wherever - it is so inspiring when I see groups of muslims praying in one direction, regardless of what may be in their hearts, only God knows -It is true that only the god knows and that is what matters. So does the god care about superficial unity or does he care about real unity? Real unity has nothing to do with praying to a specific physical direction.
But the truth is:
"Goodness does not consist in turning your face towards East or west. The truly good are those who believe in God and the Last Day..." 2:177Yes. This is the truth that you know as you would know your own children. Not just you, but all those who were given the book know it as they know their own children (2:146). Do you know Mecca or Jerusalem or any of the shrines in them as you know your own children?
also perhaps masjid really does refer to a solid structure for muslims to prostrate in or around and perhaps those muslims in etheopia were never afforded one or the ritual of prayer had not been instigated for them as they were removed from the main fold.There is nothing in the great reading that says that "masjid" is for "ritual prayer". Also, according to those same traditions, the Mosque in Yathrib was not a solid structure and it had no roof and the pulpit was the trunk of a palm tree. Also, a physical structure is not what makes any building a "masjid". So clearly a physical structure is irrelevant.
Compare the battles fought in Jerusalem to the battles fought around the Sacred Mosque recorded in history ..... all is relative ... "fight them not at the Sacred mosque .. till they fight you" ... its all relative my friends ... Masjid-al-Haram .. is Kaaba and the surrounding Mosque. "Al-masjid al-haram" is not "kaaba". We are told in the great reading that "al-bayt al-haram"/the inviolable house is the "kaaba"/base. The god doesn't choose words haphazardly.
The stone cube in Mecca cannot be the house that whoever ENTERS IT is safe. How many people can you fit in the cube? Again, the god doesn't choose his words haphazardly but very precisely.
What is your understanding of the Kaa'ba. Because I am greatly puzzled by it.As with all Arabic words, the feminine word "kaaba" has the same meaning as the masculine "kaab" but the feminine sometimes adds a sense of classification. For example, "al-mayta" in 5:3 is the class of animals which are found to be already dead. It is not a specific animal.
The etymology of both "kaab" and "kaaba" point to the original meaning being that of "base". Thus the word has come to mean "heel" which is the base that we stand on. It is the base of the foot and the whole body. Similarly, the base of the shoe is called "kaab". In rural areas of Arabia, the term "kaab al-wady" is still used to denote "the base of the valley". The term "mukaab" means cube, which is of course a shape with the same base on all sides.
The context of the usage of the word in the great reading confirms this meaning. For example, we are told that the animal offerings for the feast (hagg) should reach the base. This is normal since the base is where everyone would be gathered during the feast (hagg). Also, we are told that the inviolable house where no partners are set up with the god is made to be the base. Whoever enters the base is secure. This being a class also means that this is not a specific place but any place that is established as the base.
The concept of the "safe base" is a well known common universal concept. Even children know it and thus watch them as they naturally designate a "base" as the safe place when they play war games or a game of tag.
We once again see the great reading combining the conceptual essence (idealism and essentialism philosophies) with the empirical verification of realism and the reality in the use of language of constructivism to provide a very powerful message of truth that destroys falsehood using so few words. I think that the great reading has established a new and as of yet ungrasped philosophical discipline. This great reading cannot be from anyone else other than the god.
On the other hand, a pagan black stone cube that is irrationally adored in a certain culture is not a universal concept and certainly has nothing to do with truth or safety.
Pealeht 
Kolm Sept 10, 2008 11:28 pm
Kuidas nii? Kus ta siis ennem oli?
Minu teada igasugused värsid, kus prohvet Mekasse minema hakkas ja seal palvekodasid püstitas, mida siis kaabana tõlgendatakse, saadeti ju kõik hiljem, pärast SEDA värssi, mis üldse palvesuunast räägib 
