VF: Ramadanist ja palverannakust

Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 27 Aug 2007 06:28 pm Post subject:

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

allikas:http://www.free-minds.org/articles/science/calendars.htm

See artikkel peaks valgust heitma kusimustele millal peaks toimuma Ramadan ja kui mitu peava on paastumine.
Onnelikku Ramadani aega!

In this article, God willing, we will be able to answer some critical questions that arise when one is studying the Quran:

When is Ramadhan?
When is Hajj?
When are the four 'restricted' months?

If we are successful, then you should be able to give-up the systems you are using today for a system designed by the Almighty and harmonious with nature.

Today's Islamic calendar?

The current 'Islamic' calendar uses a simple count of 12 lunar months which is presumably bases on the Quran and which uses the 'Hijra' (prophet's migration to Medina) as its 'year-0'.

"The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the sky and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous." (9:36)

The lunar months retain Arabic names in the following sequence:

1. Muharam, 2. Safar, 3. Rabea I, 4. Rabea II, 5. Jamadi I, 6. Jamadi II, 7. Rajab, 8. Shaban, 9. Ramadhan, 10. Shawal, 11. Dhul Qida, 12. Dhul Hija.

The obvious result of such a calendar as any amateur astronomer would know is that the lunar year (12 months * 29.53 days per month = 354.36 days) will be 11-days shorter than the actual solar year of 365.242 days.

This calendar results in the months wildly being out of sync with the seasons and any future 'pre-planning' becomes a complexity in-itself.
Now, it may never have occurred to you to fiddle with this calendar or to examine it carefully in the light of the Quran, but it is no secret that nearly all nations who profess to use the 'Islamic' calendar will also run a 'civil' calendar which uses a 365-day year and for which they schedule their lives and businesses.

A logical problem:

"A month of Ramadhan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide and clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He Has guided you, that you may be thankful. " (2:185)

"We have sent it down in the night of destiny. And do you know what is the night of destiny?. The night of destiny is better than one thousand months. The Angels and the Spirit come down in it by their Lord?s leave in every matter. It is peaceful until the coming of dawn." (97:105)

Here we are told that the Quran was revealed in a 'specific' month (the 9th month of the current calendar) and in a 'specific night'.

The problem created by a wildly spinning calendar is that this special 'night' where the Earth is in a specific location in relation to the sun and the moon and the universe does not occur but once in a 365-days period. Therefore to move the month in which there is fasting from summer to winter to Autumn to Fall clearly creates a logical problem.

What is a Year / What is a Month?

To define these time periods is the first step to unraveling the problem faced with the calendar and the mistakes made.

Year: - Typically defined as a rotation of the Earth around the Sun (365 days rounded).

This is scientifically calculated as the time it takes the Earth to rotate around the Sun from the beginning of one vernal Equinox to the next vernal Equinox. Such calculation comes to approximately 365.24 days (also known as tropical year).

"And We made the night and the day as two signs, so We erased the sign of night and We made the sign of day to see-in, that you may seek bounty from your Lord, and that you may know the number of the years and the count. And everything We have detailed completely." (17:12)

In 17:12 above, God speaks of the night and day and how they serve as timing devices. And as we know the night and day are results of the spinning of the earth on its axes and thus the presence or absence of sunlight on areas of the earth in its rotation causes night and day. So the sun is a factor here in the issue of night and day. And the sun is indeed a body designed by God to serve (among other functions) as a timer...
1 year = 1 earth phase around the sun (approx. 365 days).

What may be of interest to point-out is that the Quran uses the singular form of the word 'day/yawm' approximately 365-times. Thus relating to us the proper definition for the word 'year' (i.e. it is a solar based method).

Month: - This is typically known as a 30 day period.

"He is the One who made the sun to emit light, and the moon to reflect it, and He measured its phases so that you would know the number of the years and the count. God has not created this except for truth. He details the revelations for a people who know. " (10:5)

The unique structure of the Moon with it 'phases' has been known from the earliest written records showing that various civilizations used it for their calculations. The mean interval between conjunctions of the Moon and Sun make for the 29.53 days between and this has been called a 'Month'.

Please note that the calculation of new-moon to new-moon is scientifically and correctly done based on the 'conjunction' and not the sighting of a crescent as done in today's Islamic calendar. Thus, calendars can be predicted accurately years in advance based on the perfect system of design in the cosmos and not the physical sighting based on optical discrepancies.

1 month = 1 moon phase (approx. 30 days)

Again, what we know is not a coincidence is that the 'plural' occurrence of the word 'days/ayaam' in the Quran is 30 times.

The Jewish Mistake

The Jews had taken into account the movements of the sun and moon by adopted a luni-solar calendar, for which they had an intercalary month (Adaar II) which they inserted regularly into the calendar to make a 13th month to keep in-line with the true length of a year and the seasons.

YUSUFALI: Verily the transposing (of a prohibited month) is an addition to Unbelief: the Unbelievers are led to wrong thereby: for they make it lawful one year, and forbidden another year, in order to adjust the number of months forbidden by Allah and make such forbidden ones lawful. The evil of their course seems pleasing to them. But Allah guideth not those who reject Faith. (9:37)

The early scholars of the Quran took it to mean that this 'intercalary' month was a serious mistake and they thus abandoned its practice to the current 12-month lunar cycle.

By keeping in mind the true meaning of a 'year' as being 365 days, we can see that this is a clear mistake on behalf of the scholars and that closer examination reveals that it was not the 'intercalary' month that was being admonished, but the false Jewish practice of accelerating its insertion (every other year) which overcompensates and keeps the months out of sync with the true year.

"Know that the acceleration of the intercalary is an increase in rejection, to misguide those who have rejected by it. They make it lawful one calendar year, and they forbid it one calendar year, so as to circumvent the count that God Has made restricted; thus they make lawful what God made forbidden! Their evil works have been adorned for them, and God does not guide the rejecting people." (9:37)

The proper system to follow is to insert an intercalary month every 3rd lunar year (not every other year as the Jews were doing), and this would bring the Solar & Lunar calendars within perfect synchronization every 19 solar years (also referred to as the Metonic Cycle). The number of times the word 'year(s)' occurs in the Quran is '19' for which we have learned that the Quran has no 'coincidences'.

The four 'restricted' months

The current 'Islamic' calendar considers the months of Muharam, Rajeb, Dhul Qida, Dhul Huja as being 'forbidden/sacred' months. What this means to an average Muslim is that these months must be 'holy' in some way... However, this is not what the Quran has said nor what needs to be understood.

"The count of the months with God is twelve months in God?s record the day He created the sky and the earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set-up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous. " (9:36)

The word 'Hurum' is more accurately translated as 'restricted/forbidden' rather than 'holy' (which is Muqadas in Arabic).

What is 'restricted'?

"O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases." (5:1)

Here we see the Arabic word "Hurum" being placed in its proper context as 'restricted'. What is clearly restricted is the hunting of game in this period.

In-fact, the 5th chapter/sura in the Quran deals primarily with the issue of game conservation and environmental protection. The book of God is not only a book of justice for mankind, but it is also a book of life for this planet and the continuation of our species.

Now, the only reason gaming would be 'restricted' in 4 months every year would mean that this is the "mating season" for such wildlife where hunting them will lead to a rapid decline in their populations. This can only be the case if the 4-months fall within the "mating season" of these wildlife and thus they are fixed to the natural seasons the land and not wildly floating around as we have today.

Four months sequential?

"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters. And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people on the great day of Pilgrimage: ?That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners? If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution." (9:2-3)

Although the answer was obvious since we are dealing with gaming restrictions, the verse above confirms this fact also as being 4 sequential months. The current Islamic calendar makes months 1,7,11 & 12 as 'sacred' which is in contradiction to 9:2-3 above.

When does the year start?

This is by far the most difficult question that needed much time and thought.

What we have determined thus far is that the normal year is 12 lunar months, with a 13th month being inserted every 3rd lunar year to compensate for the seasonal shift. We also have determined that 4 of these months are 'restricted' from hunting any game and that they are 'sequential'.

The simplest way to start a calendar is to have a 'marker' which is repeated year after year to align the calendar to the solar movements. The measurable events which may be construed as 'markers' have been identified as follows:

The Autumnal Equinox
The Vernal Equinox

The Autumn Equinox is The date (near September 22 in the northern hemisphere) when night and day are nearly of the same length and Sun crosses the celestial equator (i.e., declination 0) moving southward (in the northern hemisphere). The autumnal equinox marks the first day of the season of autumn.

The Vernal Equinox is The date (near March 21 in the northern hemisphere) when night and day are nearly the same length and Sun crosses the celestial equator (i.e., declination 0) moving northward. The vernal equinox marks the first day of the season of spring.
The 'equinox' marks the seasonal beginning of winter & summer and which has been used as a 'marker' for the seasons.

The Jewish calendar uses the 'vernal equinox' as its 'marker' and begins the year count with the first lunar month that appears on or after this date (the Jews claim that this was the time they emerged from Egypt and that God decreed to them the calendar to begin in this period).

"This should be cherished by Quraysh. The way they cherish the journey of the winter and summer. So let them worship the Lord of this House. The One who fed them from hunger, and protected them from fear. " (106:1-4)

However, looking at the sequence which the Quran uses in 106:1-4 above by beginning the winter before the summer, it becomes logical and natural to chose the 'Autumn Equinox' as the 'marker' for the beginning of the year.

Autumn Equinox (on or around September 23rd)

Months 1-4 are 'restricted' from hunting.

Months 5-12 are normal hunting months.

Month 13 is inserted every 3rd lunar year to keep in-line with the seasons.

How to determine when the 13th months is added?

As explained above, the system of determining the new year begins with the 1st new moon after the autumn equinox. However, since we are beginning the count of the years from 'point zero' then the issue of 'when' to insert the 13th month needs to be clarified.

If we count 12 lunar months using the Gregorian year 2003 as a start-point, then it needs to be observed if the 'new moon' of the 'new year' is falling before or after the autumn equinox. If the new moon is falling 'before' the start of the equinox, then this will be a 13 month year. If the new moon is 'on' or 'after', then it is a 12 month year.

Once the first 13th month insertion is taken care of, it will be found that 7 such insertions will take place in a 19 solar year period.

Mating Season of animals?

A quick search on the internet for the mating season of deer (to use an obvious animal) in the northern hemisphere revealed that November was the 'peak' of the mating season. This period fits perfectly in-line with the 4-restricted months designed to preserve wildlife.

When is Fasting?

Now that we have the calendar working, we need to determine when the decreed period of fasting will fall in this 12 month cycle.

"A month of Ramadhan, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide and clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He Has guided you, that you may be thankful. " (2:185)

The key to understanding which month the fast is to be held in is the word 'Ramdhan'. This word is being used today to indicate that it is the name of one of the Arabic months (the 9th to be specific) in the wildly spinning lunar calendar. However, a simple examination of the word itself reveals quite interesting meanings:

Ramadh/Ramdhi/Ramadha = The period beginning autumn/rains that approach at the end of summer and beginning of autumn/the land that is still hot from summer.

Here is a 'literal' translation of 2:185 which changes our understanding quite considerably:

"A month beginning Autumn, in which the Quran was sent down as a guide and clarification of the guidance and the criterion. Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it. And whoever is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days. God wants to bring you ease and not to bring you hardship; and so that you may complete the count, and glorify God for what He Has guided you, that you may be thankful. " (2:185)

Thus it is the 1st month of the year that comes immediately after the Autumn Equinox (which is also the 1st of the 'restricted' months) in which fasting has been decreed.

How Long is the Fast?

Islamic scholars have determined that fasting shall be for a full lunar month based on 2:185 (where it says 'Whoever from you is witness to that month, then let him fast in it'). However, the length of the fast has already been established in 2:183-184 which they conveniently overlooked:

"O you who believe, it is decreed for you to fast as it was decreed for those before you that you may be righteous. A few number of days. Whoever of you is ill or traveling, then the same number from different days; and as for those who can do so but with difficulty, they may redeem by feeding the needy. And whoever does good voluntarily, then it is better for him. And if you fast it is better for you if you knew. " (2:183-184)

Ignoring the fact that fasting is decreed to those before us (and thus is not specific to the Muslims, nor to the revelation of the Quran), the period which we are to fast has been defined by the word 'madoodat/few'. This word typically indicates a number from 3-10 as the term 'madoodat' is used for numbers which can be simply counted even by the fingers of the hand (this same word can be seen in 2:203 to indicate a period of 3 days).

The answer (which number is it from 3-10) is derived from 2:185 in which God say's "so that you may complete the count". The complete count for our number system is a 10-based system (2:196). i.e. we when we reach 10, we start the count again with 11, 12, 13, etc.. (this is different from an 8 based system which has been used in the past or even a 7 base system).

Fasting = 10 days (these are the first 10-days of the 1st month of the new year since the fast begins with witnessing the month, thus its beginning).

A note to mention out of curiosity is that the occurrence of the word 'yawmakum/yamahum/your days/their days' is exactly 10 times in the Quran.

"It has been made lawful for you during the night of fasting to approach your women sexually. They are a garment for you and you are a garment for them. God knows that you used to betray your souls so He Has accepted your repentance, and forgiven you; now you may approach them and seek what God Has written for you. And you may eat and drink until the white thread is distinct from the black thread of dawn; then you shall complete the fast until night; and do not approach them while you are devoted in the temples. These are God?s boundaries, so do not transgress them. It is thus that God makes His revelations clear to the people that they may be righteous." (2:187)

The fast is to occur from just before dawn and lasts till the night approaches.

When is the Hajj/Pilgrimage

This answer may have already been made apparent, but to close the calendar circle it should be highlighted as follows:

"They ask you regarding the new moons, say: ?They provide a scheduled timing for the people as well as for the Pilgrimage? And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed." (2:189)

"The Pilgrimage is in the months which have been appointed. So whoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage in them, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding." (2:197)

"Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters. And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people on the great day of Pilgrimage: ?That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners? If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected a painful retribution. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous. So when the restricted months are passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the assembly, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful." (9:2-5)

The Pilgrimage is to be held with the 'new moons' of the 4 'restricted months'. Thus, any person who wishes to perform the Pilgrimage merely has to decide in which of the 4-months he/she will pilgrim and then go ahead and do so.

How long is the pilgrimage?

"And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered. " (2:203)

"And proclaim to mankind with the pilgrimage, they will come to you walking and on every transport, they will come from every deep enclosure. So that they may witness benefits for themselves and recall God?s name in the appointed days over what He Has provided for them of the animal livestock. So eat from it and feed the needy and the poor." (22:27-28)

"And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God; if you cannot, then make what is easy of the animal sacrifice, and do not shave your heads until the animal sacrifice reaches its destination. Whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then you may redeem by fasting or giving charity or a sacrifice. If you are secure, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what he can of the animal sacrifice. As for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family do not live near the restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution" (2:196)

The Pilgrimage will last for the first 3-days of the 'new moon' in which God is praised for His gift of the livestock to humanity. The Pilgrimage will be covered in a separate article (God willing) highlighting he rituals and feasts associated with such an event.

Conclusion

God's calendar is one that exists in nature and which utilizes the entities of sun, moon and star to make a perfect timing mechanism that is in-line with nature and in-harmony with our movements through the universe. here is a summary of what has been explained above:
The Islamic new year begins with the 1st moon after the autumn equinox (the moon is based on 'conjunction' and not sighting).

The first 4 months (1-4) are 'restricted' from hunting any game, while domestic animals and the catch of the sea is lawful (see Quran 5:1 & 5:96).

The 1st of these months is the period in which fasting is decreed for 10-days as it was decreed for those before us.

The Pilgrimage is to be held in any of the 4 restricted months during the first 3-days of the 'new moon'.

After a count of 12 lunar months, if the new moon appears before the autumn equinox, then that will be the time to insert a 13th month. This insertion is done 7 times every 19 solar years to ensure an alignment of the seasons.

It is the same system that He taught to Abraham and the prophets that came after him...We now have the option to hold tight to this balanced system and regulate with it our lives, or we may abandon it to what we desire.

"And who would abandon the creed of Abraham except one who fools himself? We have selected him in this world, and in the Hereafter he is of the righteous." (2:130)

Ma leidsin hiljuti huvitavad seosed oma peas ramadani teema kohta, mõeldes tagasi kõikidele vestlustele, loetule, värssidele jne jne jne.... Ma küll lubasin endale, et ei tegele selle teemaga enne, kui tähtsamad asjad on selgeks saanud, aga mõte tuli iseenesest

Palju on räägitud ja arutletud selle üle, millal koraan alla saadeti, mis oli see kuu, mida tegi neitsi Maarja paastumise ajal täpsemalt, kas see on see sama paast, mida tähendab täpsemalt siyam(millestki loobumine) selles kontekstis jne. Kui oleme vastanud, et see võib olla ka näiteks halvast loobumine, halvast sõnast, teost, mõttest, liigsetest ihadest jne jne, siis on meid välja naerdud sunniitide poolt näiteks, kes on tulnud küsima, et kas tõesti peame me siis loobuma neist asjust ainult ramadani kuu ajaks? Aga aga aga...

Mulle jäi silma täna üks värss Solomoni kohta, millest ma mitte kuidagi sotti ei saanud. Ja kui päris aus olla, siis ei saa siiani Aga ma veel juurdlen selle üle. Aga üks lause oli selles värsis huvitav:

38:32 He said, "I enjoyed the good of materials more than I enjoyed remembering my Lord, until it became totally dark!"

Ühesõnaga rääkis Solomoni kahetsustest ja vigadest, mida ta kunagi tegi. Siin jäi mulle silma see lause lõpp just. Miks ütles ta, et ta nautis materiaalset rohkem kui jumala meenutamist KUNI täieliku pimedaks minemiseni? Selle üle ma siis mõtlesingi ja torgatas pähe selline asi, et ramadani kuu ajal on ju samuti vaja paastuda/loobuda millestki kuni loojanguni. Arvatakse, et see on söök ja jook, millest loobuma peab.

Kuna me ei tea koraani järgi, millal koraan saadeti, siis järgmise asjana tuli meelde selline huvitav asi, et sunniidi usu järgi on ramadani viimasel nädalal üks tähtis öö - lailat ul qadr - paaritute kuupäevade seas, mis paradiisi väravad on lahti, kõik soovid lähevad täide ja kõik eelmise aasta patud andestatakse ning kurjus on sel ajal vangistuses. Kuna nad ei tea täpselt, mis on see öö täpselt (nimelt ei teadnud seda prophet Muhamed ka mitte), siis on nad leidnud targa mooduse - nimelt palvetada kõikidel paaritud kuupäevadega öödel (üks peab ikka täppi minema) Ehk siis 21., 23., 25. ja 27.ndal. See on iseenesest äärmiselt geniaalne idee ja esimene, mis arvatavasti igale inimesele pähe torkaks sellises dilemmalises situatsioonis. Seetõttu sain omale mõtte, et kuna Jumal ei ole samuti ära maininud, mis kuul koraan täpselt saadeti, siis ehk peaksime meie samuti talitama selle paastumisega/millestki loobumisega Nagu me siin varemgi arvanud oleme - loobuma halvast sellel ajal. Ehk siis loobuma sellest ööpäevaringseks ajaks kogu aeg. Olema kogu aeg valvsad, et käituksime õigesti, sest võibolla on just nüüd see koraani kuu, mil me paastuma peame

Sellega seoses tuli mulle meelde ta üks tarmo mainitud mõtetest palvetamise kohta (kui hakkasin mõtlema, et miks siis just loojanguni on vaja ainult pai laps olla). Loogiline on see, et inimesed lähevad päikeseloojanguga ju magama Jumal on öelnud, et ta on teinud meile öö magamiseks ja päeva ärkvel olemiseks. Päikesega tõuseme, loobume kogu päevaks halvast, kurjusest (siyam :???, meenutame pidevalt päeval Jumalat (nagu me peaksimegi), sest võibolla on just TÄNA ramadan ning õhtul päikesega magama See motiveerib meid olema ALATI iga kell hea käitumisega ja hea inimene.

See võib olla ka üks põhjustest näiteks, miks Solomon ütles, et eelistas materiaalsust Jumala meenutamisele, kuniks päike looja läks (sest magades ta seda kõike teha ei saa - materiaalsust ülistada või Jumalat meenutada).

See on loomulikult väga algeline idee, mis korraks pähe tärkas ning võimalikult ka loogikavigu täis, aga pidasin huvitavaks seda teiega jagada

mina olen aru saanud, et mitte eksimine on niivõinaa koguaeg ülioluline ja spetsiaalselt ramadaniga sidumine ei anna siinkohal asjale mingit täiendavat värvingut juurde.
sest patt sõnaotseses mõttes lahutab Jumalast.

siis selle magamise kohapealt, et "Jumal on teinud meile öö magamiseks ja päeva ärkvel olemiseks" lisan siia sellise värsi:
30:23 And from His signs is your sleep by night and day, and your seeking of His bounty. In that are signs for a people who listen.
et võib ka päeval magada

sellest, et öösel me magame ja ei patusta.
olen püüdnud jälgida, mida ma unes näen (kasvõi nii, et ärgates püüan kohe üle mõelda, mida nägin) ja olen tähele pannud, et ega need unenäod nii väga Jumala kartlikud ei ole tihtipeale et kui patusest elust ilmsi olen loobunud, siis need samad asjad kestavad unes edasi... seega olen püüdnud ka unes patu tegemisest loobuda. ma küll ei oska selle kohta eriti selgesõnalist seletust anda kuidas ma seda teen aga vähemaks on seda jäänud igatahes...
mõtlemiseks siinkohal selline salm: 39:42 God seizes the souls at the time of their death; and for those that have not died, during their sleep. He then keeps those that have been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.

nüüd vaatasin seda su kirjakohta lähemalt:

38:31 When, close to dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him.
38:32 He then said: “I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; now it has become totally dark!”
38:33 “Send them back.” He then rubbed their legs and necks.
38:34 And We tested Solomon and placed a corpse on his throne, but he then repented.


olen seda kunagi juba endale selgeks mõelnud ja minu arust on siin küsimus selles, et vahetult enne PÄIKESELOOJANGUT näidati talle ilusaid hobuseid. võib arvata, et talle hobused meeldisid ja ta jäi nendega seal tegevusse kuni avastas, et JUBA ON TÄIESTI PIME.
siia on nüüd ridade vahele kirjutatud see, et korralik moslem palvetab päikese loojangust pimedani...
materjalism aga viis ta mõtted mujale ja ta eksis Jumala vastu...

ja järgmine salm ütleb meile ka päris palju tuleviku kohta kui mõtlema hakata:
38:35 He said: “My Lord, forgive me, and grant me a kingship that will never be attained by anyone after me. You are the Grantor.”

ma küll ei oska öelda millne oli Saalomoni kuningriik aga kui võtta aluseks see, et jutt käib territoriaalsest suurusest ja arvestame näiteks maksimumiga, et tema kuningriik oli kogu maailm, siis see tähendab seda, et enam mitte keegi kogu maailma valitsema ei hakka. st New World Order´i kamp oma globaliseerimisega ühe Maailma Valitsuseni kunagi ei jõua

tarmo kirjutas:

mina olen aru saanud, et mitte eksimine on niivõinaa koguaeg ülioluline ja spetsiaalselt ramadaniga sidumine ei anna siinkohal asjale mingit täiendavat värvingut juurde.
sest patt sõnaotseses mõttes lahutab Jumalast.

Eiei, ma tean seda loomulikult Aga ma mõtlesin, et see võib olla motivatsiooniks neile, kel seda muidu võibolla ei oleks Sest tead sa, kui palju on neid sunniite näiteks, kes palvetavad aastas ainult ramadani ajal? Tõesti! Üks mu sõber tuli huvitavale järeldusele selle koha pealt, et nad ju usuvad, et saavad oma aasta patud kõik andeks, kui on ramadani ajal korralikud. Et ehk siis loodavadki selle peale, et elavad ramadanist ramadanini Selliseid nõrgausulisi on küll, kes oma usulistest kohustustest kinni ei tea. Ja kui nüüd nendele inimestele öelda, et vot näed, me ei tea millal on ramadan, seega võib ta teoreetiliselt olla iga tänane päev peal, siis hakkaksid nad ehk ka iga päev palvetama Korralikule usklikule pole seda vaja. Täpselt nagu on Jumal pidanud vajalikuks uskmatuid põrgu ja tulega hirmutada (asjad, mida inimesed tavaliselt kõige enam kardavad - füüsiline valu). Korralik usklik ei vaja hirmutamist selleks, et normaalselt elada Piisab vaid tõetunnetusest südames!

tarmo kirjutas:

siis selle magamise kohapealt, et "Jumal on teinud meile öö magamiseks ja päeva ärkvel olemiseks" lisan siia sellise värsi:
30:23 And from His signs is your sleep by night and day, and your seeking of His bounty. In that are signs for a people who listen.
et võib ka päeval magada

Seda muidugi, et päeval võib ka magada. Ega see siis keelatud pole Aga teoreetiliselt ja üldiselt on ju selleks ikkagi öö

tarmo kirjutas:

sellest, et öösel me magame ja ei patusta.
olen püüdnud jälgida, mida ma unes näen (kasvõi nii, et ärgates püüan kohe üle mõelda, mida nägin) ja olen tähele pannud, et ega need unenäod nii väga Jumala kartlikud ei ole tihtipeale et kui patusest elust ilmsi olen loobunud, siis need samad asjad kestavad unes edasi... seega olen püüdnud ka unes patu tegemisest loobuda. ma küll ei oska selle kohta eriti selgesõnalist seletust anda kuidas ma seda teen aga vähemaks on seda jäänud igatahes...
mõtlemiseks siinkohal selline salm: 39:42 God seizes the souls at the time of their death; and for those that have not died, during their sleep. He then keeps those that have been overtaken by death, and He sends the others back until a predetermined time. In that are signs for a people who will think.

Hehee Tead tarmo, ma ei usu, et see nüüd patt on, kui me selliseid unenägusid näeme Meie ju ei kontrolli oma unenägusid. Aga kui räägid, et need on vähemaks jäänud, siis tegele edasi mõttetööga, siis kaovad ehk täiesti ära ükskord

tarmo kirjutas:

nüüd vaatasin seda su kirjakohta lähemalt:

38:31 When, close to dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him.
38:32 He then said: “I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; now it has become totally dark!”
38:33 “Send them back.” He then rubbed their legs and necks.
38:34 And We tested Solomon and placed a corpse on his throne, but he then repented.


olen seda kunagi juba endale selgeks mõelnud ja minu arust on siin küsimus selles, et vahetult enne PÄIKESELOOJANGUT näidati talle ilusaid hobuseid. võib arvata, et talle hobused meeldisid ja ta jäi nendega seal tegevusse kuni avastas, et JUBA ON TÄIESTI PIME.
siia on nüüd ridade vahele kirjutatud see, et korralik moslem palvetab päikese loojangust pimedani...
materjalism aga viis ta mõtted mujale ja ta eksis Jumala vastu...

Jah, ma nägin ka seda tõlget "...now it has become totally dark!” ja mõtlesin ka selle üle, aga see oli ainult ühes kohas kuuest tõlkest, mida mina vaatasin. Ülejäänutes oli kõikjal "until darkness".

Hannah kirjutas:

Hehee Tead tarmo, ma ei usu, et see nüüd patt on, kui me selliseid unenägusid näeme Meie ju ei kontrolli oma unenägusid.

miks sa seda arvad? bring your proof!

Hannah kirjutas:

tarmo kirjutas:

nüüd vaatasin seda su kirjakohta lähemalt:

38:31 When, close to dusk, well trained horses were displayed before him.
38:32 He then said: “I have enjoyed materialism more than I enjoyed the remembrance of my Lord; now it has become totally dark!”
38:33 “Send them back.” He then rubbed their legs and necks.
38:34 And We tested Solomon and placed a corpse on his throne, but he then repented.


olen seda kunagi juba endale selgeks mõelnud ja minu arust on siin küsimus selles, et vahetult enne PÄIKESELOOJANGUT näidati talle ilusaid hobuseid. võib arvata, et talle hobused meeldisid ja ta jäi nendega seal tegevusse kuni avastas, et JUBA ON TÄIESTI PIME.
siia on nüüd ridade vahele kirjutatud see, et korralik moslem palvetab päikese loojangust pimedani...
materjalism aga viis ta mõtted mujale ja ta eksis Jumala vastu...

Jah, ma nägin ka seda tõlget "...now it has become totally dark!” ja mõtlesin ka selle üle, aga see oli ainult ühes kohas kuuest tõlkest, mida mina vaatasin. Ülejäänutes oli kõikjal "until darkness".

mis seal vahet on?
las ta siis olla until. see i muuda ju mõtet. ta nautis maiseid asju UNTIL oli pimedaks läinud selle asemel et see aeg palvetada...

sinu vastus paneb mind mõtlema, et kas sa sellist salmi oled kunagi näinud:

17:78 You shall hold the communion at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed.

tarmo kirjutas:

Hannah kirjutas:

Hehee Tead tarmo, ma ei usu, et see nüüd patt on, kui me selliseid unenägusid näeme Meie ju ei kontrolli oma unenägusid.

miks sa seda arvad? bring your proof!

Tõend ongi see, et ma ei taha omale neid unenägusid, mida ma väga tihti näen. Alles hiljuti nägin õudukat näiteks Ma ei väida, et need pole tekitatud meie poolt, aga igal juhul on see tekkinud minu kontrolli alt väljas olevalt, sest ei saa ju midagi kontrollida, mille kontrollist teadlik ei olda. Ja kui selline kontroll siiski toimub, siis puudub selleks tahe ja tahte puudumine välistab süü

tarmo kirjutas:

mis seal vahet on?
las ta siis olla until. see i muuda ju mõtet. ta nautis maiseid asju UNTIL oli pimedaks läinud selle asemel et see aeg palvetada...

Ma sain sellest värsist hoopis teisiti aru. Kui ma seda lugesin, siis mõistsin ma seda ikka selliselt, et Solomon nautis materiaalseid hüvesid kaua aega ja siis kahetses ja muutis end. "Until the darkness" oligi see, mis mind mõtlema pani, kuni leidsin teooria, et until the darkness peab olema just vastupidi jumalakartlik ja täid häid mõtteid/tegusid Ning seda ongi rõhutatud selles värsis.

tarmo kirjutas:

sinu vastus paneb mind mõtlema, et kas sa sellist salmi oled kunagi näinud:

17:78 You shall hold the communion at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed.

Ma ei mõista See on ju just see, mida mina ka räägin ju! Et Jumalaga tuleb olla suhtluses ja ühenduses päikesetõusust KUNI pimedani (kuni magamaminekuni), sest sealt edasi ei saa me endam oma ühendust TEADLIKULT ega ka tahtlikult arvatavasti kontrollida See salm ju just kinnitab minu pikka teooriat siin

Ainus, mille suhtes ma kindel ei ole ja mis kukalt sügama võtab, on see "whoever witnessed the month of ramadan", et nemad peavad ramadani vaid läbi viima. Seega on see hetkel ainus, mis minu ideesse ei mahu mu oma hetkelise vaatevälja kohadelt. Ja teine on see "söögist/joogist loobumine", mida oletatavasti see värss ka sisaldama peab erinevate juttude järgi, kuigi seda võib samuti võtta liigse ihana, mida taltsutama peab Eriti kui tänapäeva tervisehädasid vaadata, mis söömisest tulevad.

see paar rida, mis seal Saalomonist räägitakse algab ju sellega, et at dusk toodi hobused. ja until darkness nautis ta materjalismi...

tarmo kirjutas:

see paar rida, mis seal Saalomonist räägitakse algab ju sellega, et at dusk toodi hobused. ja until darkness nautis ta materjalismi...

No aga mida sina siis aru said, et ma väidan? Ma ju seda räägingi Vähemalt ma arvan, et ma seda räägin Isver, sa paned mind nüüd ise ka kahtlema. Kas ma ütlesin kuskil midagi vastuolulist kogemata või?

Päikesetõusust kuni päikeseloojanguni käib jutt. Ja sellest ajavahemikust räägin mina ka.

Oot oot....dusk - hämarik....see on siis õhtuse hämariku kohta või? Mitte hommikuse?

Oi kui rumal minust!!! :D:D Hämarik on ju õhtul Ma võtsin selle automaatselt hommiku pähe, seda lugedes Eestikeelses koraanis puudub üldse see sõna On öeldud vaid, et "eelistas maiseid rõõme kuni pimedaks minemiseni".

No nüüd on kõigel ka hoopis teine maik juures Pean hakkama jälle otsast peale juurdlema selle kõige üle ja korrektuurid sisse tegema

Samas olgu selle värsiga kuidas on, ramadani-teema võib ju midagi sinnakanti ikkagi olla ehk...

Hannah kirjutas:

tarmo kirjutas:

Hannah kirjutas:

Hehee Tead tarmo, ma ei usu, et see nüüd patt on, kui me selliseid unenägusid näeme Meie ju ei kontrolli oma unenägusid.

miks sa seda arvad? bring your proof!

Tõend ongi see, et ma ei taha omale neid unenägusid, mida ma väga tihti näen. Alles hiljuti nägin õudukat näiteks Ma ei väida, et need pole tekitatud meie poolt, aga igal juhul on see tekkinud minu kontrolli alt väljas olevalt, sest ei saa ju midagi kontrollida, mille kontrollist teadlik ei olda. Ja kui selline kontroll siiski toimub, siis puudub selleks tahe ja tahte puudumine välistab süü

ma arvan, et õudusunenägude nägemine on otseses seoses eluviisidega.
vaata nt uskmatuid, neil on pidevalt kõikvõimalikud erinevad hirmud.
aga usklikel ei ole hirme, sest nad mõistavad, et ainuke keda karta on Jumal.
ja kui sa igati püüdled enda paremaks muutmise poole, siis pole sul ju ka Jumalalt karistust oodata.
hirmud puuduvad.
kui hirme pole ei näe ka õudusunenägusid. mille eest peaks Jumal sind hirmutama?
nt ma pole juba mõnda aega õudukaid näinud. varem nägin ikka aegajalt. aga mida aeg edasi seda vähemaks on neid jäänud... ja nüüd enam ei mäletagi, millal viimati.

kui sa nüüd tabasid seda seost, siis mõistad, et õuduka nägemine on ikkagi sinu enese poolt esile kutsutud.

Hannah kirjutas:

Oot oot....dusk - hämarik....see on siis õhtuse hämariku kohta või? Mitte hommikuse?

kunagi oli üks vampiirifilm "from dusk till dawn" - vampiirid tegutsevad öösel - "hämarikust koiduni". mina olen selle sõna dusk tähenduse endale selle seose kaudu meelde jätnud.

tarmo kirjutas:

mille eest peaks Jumal sind hirmutama?
nt ma pole juba mõnda aega õudukaid näinud. varem nägin ikka aegajalt. aga mida aeg edasi seda vähemaks on neid jäänud... ja nüüd enam ei mäletagi, millal viimati.

kui sa nüüd tabasid seda seost, siis mõistad, et õuduka nägemine on ikkagi sinu enese poolt esile kutsutud.

Mina ei ole ka sugugi palju neid näinud elus Elu jooksul vist üle kümne korra polegi näinud. Aga ei tea jah, miks just see viimane nii ootamatult tuli. Ma ei ole nii kindel hetkel veel, et unenäod kõik Jumalast on. Arvestades seda, et ma näen väga palju unes seda, mida ma päeva jooksul teinud olen, siis....no ma ei tea. Samas ma ei välista seda sugugi

Hannah kirjutas:

Ma ei ole nii kindel hetkel veel, et unenäod kõik Jumalast on. Arvestades seda, et ma näen väga palju unes seda, mida ma päeva jooksul teinud olen, siis....no ma ei tea. Samas ma ei välista seda sugugi

unenäod võivad peegeldada ka päevasündmusi. ja valikuid.

ma olen tähele pannud, et on unenägusid, kus mu ees on valikud ja ma saan neid ka kasutada . st süzee ei tule mitte nagu film vaid ma ise kujundan selle oma valikutega, ette antud teemadel. nagu eluski. Jumal annab olukorra ja kõik sõltub meist, millise raja me valime. õige või vale. sirge või kõvera.
paljud valikud ärkvel olles me teeme ju niikuinii alateadlikult ilma mõtlemata. ärkvel olles on võimalik olukordi lisaks ka kaaluda ja vaagida ja siis õigesti valida.
unes aga toimub pigem selline alateadlik valik.
ma arvan, et lõpuni puhas on inimene siis kui ta ´igast asendist´ teeb õige valiku.

Tsiteerin: :

ma arvan, et lõpuni puhas on inimene siis kui ta ´igast asendist´ teeb õige valiku.

see on sul vaga huvitav mote.
mul on mitmel korral nii olnud, et unes nagu oleks voimalus teha midagi sellist, mida reaalses elus iial ei teeks. Aga olen siiski valinud nn kombekama tee. hihii, ja siis parast hommikul argates moelnud, et huvitav kyll, et kui on voimalus midagi teha ilma et sellest reaalses igapaevaelus jamadesse satuks ja siis ka ei kasuta juhust, et miks ometigi