VF: Millal on Hajj ja millal palverannak

Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 04:09 pm Post subject:

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Tarmo, vasta palun kahele kysimusele.

Millal peab Hajji tegema?
Millal Ramadani?

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 20 Feb 2008 04:50 pm Post subject:

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Anonymous wrote:
Aa, et jalle see teema, et osad kohad Koraanis enam ei kehti, tanapaeva inimestele
kõik kehtivad. kaasaarvatud need, mis sa siin just välja tõid. Aga nagu näha, mõistame me neid erinevalt. Nt kui Koraani on kirjutatud, et küsi abi/juhatust Prohvetilt või Allahilt, siis sina küsid prohvetilt ja mina küsin Allahilt.

Anonymous wrote:
Tarmo, vasta palun kahele kysimusele.

Millal peab Hajji tegema?
Millal Ramadani?

1, vastuse saab Koraanist.
“They ask you regarding the crescent moons, say: “They are a timing mechanism for the people as well as for the Pilgrimage.” And piety is not that you would enter a home from its back, but piety is whomever is righteous and come to the homes from their main doors. And be aware of God that you may succeed.” (Quran 2:189)

“And remember God during a few number of days. Whoever hurries to two days, there is no sin upon him; and whoever delays, there is no sin upon him if he is being righteous. And be aware of God, and know that it is to Him that you will be gathered.” (Quran 2:203)

“And complete the Pilgrimage and the visit for God. But, if you are prevented, then make what is affordable of donation, and do not shave your heads until the donation reaches its destination; but whoever of you is ill or has an affliction to his head, then he may redeem by fasting or giving a charity or a sacrifice. But if you are able, then whoever continues the visit until the Pilgrimage, then he shall provide what is affordable of donation; but for he who cannot find anything, then he must fast for three days during the Pilgrimage and seven when he returns; this will make a complete ten; this is for those whose family is not present at the Restricted Temple. And be aware of God, and know that God is severe in retribution.” (2:196)

"The Pilgrimage months are made known. So whosoever decides to perform the Pilgrimage therein, then there shall be no sexual approach, nor vileness, nor baseless argument in the Pilgrimage. And any good that you do, God is aware of it; and bring provisions for yourselves, though the best provision is righteousness; and be aware of Me O people of understanding. " (2:197)

“Therefore, roam the land for four months and know that you will not escape God, and that God will humiliate the rejecters. And a declaration from God and His messenger to the people, on this, the peak day of the Pilgrimage: “That God and His messenger are innocent from all those who set-up partners.” If you repent, then it is better for you, and if you turn away, then know that you will not escape God. And give news to those who have rejected of a painful retribution. Except for those with whom you had a treaty from among those who have set-up partners if they did not reduce anything from it nor did they plan to attack you; you shall continue the treaty with them until its expiry. God loves the righteous. So when the restricted months have passed, then you may kill those who have set-up partners wherever you find them, and take them, and surround them, and stand against them at every point. If they repent, and hold the assembly, and contribute towards betterment, then you shall leave them alone. God is Forgiving, Merciful.” (Quran 9:2-5)

"The count of the months with God is twelve months in God's record the day He created the heavens and the Earth; four of them are restricted. This is the correct system; so do not wrong yourselves in them; and fight those who set up partners collectively as they fight you collectively. And know that God is with the righteous." (9:36)

"O you who believe, honour your contracts. Made lawful for you are all the animals of the livestock, except that which is being recited to you, and what you are not allowed to hunt of the game while you are under restriction. God decrees as He pleases." (5:1)

"Lawful for you is the catch of the sea, to eat it as enjoyment for you and for those who travel; and forbidden for you is the catch of the land as long as you are under restriction; and be aware of God to whom you will be gathered." (5:96)

2. Sinu teisele küsimusele ei ole nii kerge vastata kuna siin on mitmeid erinevaid asju, millega arvestada, selle kohta on väga palju erinevaid arvamusi, mis sõltuvad erinevate kalendrite tundmisest jne ja ma ei ole neid läbi närinud veel. Nii palju oskan sulle öelda, et kui jälgida traditsionaliste või haditi õpetusi, siis väidetavalt selgub, et kui nende skeemi kasutada ja ajas tagasi minna ajani, mil Muhamed elas, siis selgub, et ka Muhamed tegi seda valel ajal.
Seega ma ei ole ISE endale seda asja veel selgeks teinud ja ei oska sulle ka vastata hetkel. Kui sa oled endale selle kuidagi selgeks teinud ja rohkem kui ühte (seda, mis su haditis kirjas on) erinevat võimalust uurinud, siis oled oodatud sellest pajatama.

___________
vastu aga küsiks, et miks haditi inimesed hajji Mecasse korraldavad, kui Koraanis on kirjas, et õige koht on Bakka? Bakka on koht Jeruusalemas.

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Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 06:24 pm Post subject:

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Oot, ma tean jah, mis Koraan Hajji kohta raagib, kuid konkreetselt millal siis peaks tegema?

Kuidas nii et ei tea millal Ramadani teha?..i Prohvet sallalahu aleihi wasallam, vaevalt seda valel ajal tegi...sa loed voibolla valesid allikaid.

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Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 06:42 pm Post subject:

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tarmo wrote:

vastu aga küsiks, et miks haditi inimesed hajji Mecasse korraldavad, kui Koraanis on kirjas, et õige koht on Bakka? Bakka on koht Jeruusalemas.


Esiteks, sa arvad, et Prohvet Mohammed (sallalahu aleihi wasallam) tegi hajji vales kohas voi Ja et seda toestada, ei pea ju hadith uskuma...kas sa ajalugu usud?

Kas sa usud, et Prohvet elas Mekkas ja siis Medinas?


2:196 And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.

3:97 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

5:95 O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

2:198 It is no crime in you if ye seek of the bounty of your Lord (during pilgrimage). Then when ye pour down from (Mount) Arafat, celebrate the praises of Allah at the Sacred Monument, and celebrate His praises as He has directed you, even though, before this, ye went astray.

2:158 Behold! safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 20 Feb 2008 06:54 pm Post subject:

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Anonymous wrote:
Oot, ma tean jah, mis Koraan Hajji kohta raagib, kuid konkreetselt millal siis peaks tegema?

Kuidas nii et ei tea millal Ramadani teha?..i Prohvet sallalahu aleihi wasallam, vaevalt seda valel ajal tegi...sa loed voibolla valesid allikaid.
millal siis? see on kirjas nendes tsitaatides kui proovid süveneda.

aga selle asemel, et küsida nii palju, proovi vahepeal ka vastata
siin olid mõned küsimused, nt see, et kuidas sa Muhamediga konsulteerid ehk kuidas Muhamed sulle asju lahti seletab. Räägi sellest mulle. See tõesti huvitab mind, sest mina oma mõistusega ei suuda välja mõelda kuidas mina täna saaksin Muhamediga konsulteerida kui mul peaks vajadus olema...

rahu

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 20 Feb 2008 07:11 pm Post subject:

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Anonymous wrote:
tarmo wrote:

vastu aga küsiks, et miks haditi inimesed hajji Mecasse korraldavad, kui Koraanis on kirjas, et õige koht on Bakka? Bakka on koht Jeruusalemas.


Esiteks, sa arvad, et Prohvet Mohammed (sallalahu aleihi wasallam) tegi hajji vales kohas voi Ja et seda toestada, ei pea ju hadith uskuma...kas sa ajalugu usud?

Kas sa usud, et Prohvet elas Mekkas ja siis Medinas?


2:196 And complete the Hajj or 'umra in the service of Allah. But if ye are prevented (From completing it), send an offering for sacrifice, such as ye may find, and do not shave your heads until the offering reaches the place of sacrifice. And if any of you is ill, or has an ailment in his scalp, (Necessitating shaving), (He should) in compensation either fast, or feed the poor, or offer sacrifice; and when ye are in peaceful conditions (again), if any one wishes to continue the 'umra on to the hajj, He must make an offering, such as he can afford, but if he cannot afford it, He should fast three days during the hajj and seven days on his return, Making ten days in all. This is for those whose household is not in (the precincts of) the Sacred Mosque. And fear Allah, and know that Allah Is strict in punishment.

3:97 In it are Signs Manifest; (for example), the Station of Abraham; whoever enters it attains security; Pilgrimage thereto is a duty men owe to Allah,- those who can afford the journey; but if any deny faith, Allah stands not in need of any of His creatures.

5:95 O ye who believe! Kill not game while in the sacred precincts or in pilgrim garb. If any of you doth so intentionally, the compensation is an offering, brought to the Ka'ba, of a domestic animal equivalent to the one he killed, as adjudged by two just men among you; or by way of atonement, the feeding of the indigent; or its equivalent in fasts: that he may taste of the penalty of his deed. Allah forgives what is past: for repetition Allah will exact from him the penalty. For Allah is Exalted, and Lord of Retribution.

2:198 It is no crime in you if ye seek of the bounty of your Lord (during pilgrimage). Then when ye pour down from (Mount) Arafat, celebrate the praises of Allah at the Sacred Monument, and celebrate His praises as He has directed you, even though, before this, ye went astray.

2:158 Behold! safa and Marwa are among the Symbols of Allah. So if those who visit the House in the Season or at other times, should compass them round, it is no sin in them. And if any one obeyeth his own impulse to good,- be sure that Allah is He Who recogniseth and knoweth.


kas väidad, et Station of Abraham asub Meccas?
Antud temaatika kohta on üks väga asjalik uurimustöö, kus on kasutatud mitmeid erinevaid allikaid ja ainuüksi Koraaniga saab välistatud see, et hajji sihtmärk oleks olnud Mecca. Samuti leiavad kajastamist sinu poolt esitatud kirjakohad ja alla joonitud kohad saavad lahti seletatud.
vt: http://www.free-minds.org/articles/quranic/hajj.htm
ka ajaloolised faktid selle kohta, et juba ammu Meccas neid korraldati saavad seletuse seoses sellega, et Qibla suunda Muhamed vahepeal muutis

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Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 07:24 pm Post subject:

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Tegin siin selle jarjekordse free-mindsi artikli lahti ja esimen asi mis vastu vaatas oli mingi vale:

Free-minds:

"The single most overlooked clue regarding Pilgrimage is regarding the “audience”. Abraham is calling out to “mankind” and not to the “believers or Muslims”. This information poses a serious problem to the belief that Pilgrimage is a set of rituals as non-believers would not be able to identify with any of these rituals and would thus not carry them out."


Kui hajj kaib to Sacred Mosque...siis sinna ei tohi uskumatud minna:

9:28 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

9:18 The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

Mis siin enam edasi lugeda, yks vale, siis k6ik vale!

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Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 07:26 pm Post subject:

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tarmo wrote:
millal siis? see on kirjas nendes tsitaatides kui proovid süveneda.

rahu


Ma proovisin syveneda ja olen Koraani paris mitu korda labi lugenud ja ei leidnud...ehk aitad?

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Guest







Posted: 20 Feb 2008 08:32 pm Post subject:

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Lugesin teie freemindsi artiklit ramadani kohta...no aina naljakamaks laheb

For example: A common misconception is that the word "shahr" means month. However, the term "shahr" doesn't mean month. According to Classical Arabic dictionaries, the Arabs used to call the moon "shahr". But what phase of the moon does the word "shahr" imply?

Miks te siis ei vota naiteid mujalt koraanist, seal on "moon" kohapeal hoopis teine sona ju.(kamar) ....ju ikka tahendab "shahr" "month`i"

Kui vaja siis toob samu sonu mujalt koraanist et oma pointi toestada kuid nyyd ei too... get real people

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 20 Feb 2008 08:41 pm Post subject:

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free mindsis on palju artikleid, milles osade sisu kohati teistega vastuolus. Sealsete artiklite point pole lugeda ja sona- sonalt jargida, vaid lugeda ja motiskleda nende yle, kasutada oma moistust, panna proovile ja lopuks teha omad jareldused. Free Mindsi lehel on kirjas, et see leht pole tehtud selleks, et inimesi oigele teele juhatada - Seda suudab vaid Jumal - vaid et inimesed valja tuua stampmotlemisest ja hakata nagema musta ja valge korval ka teisi varve. Et inimestel tekiks huvi ja hakkaksid asja ise uurima, mitte oma uskumusi teiste katte usaldama.

Kui keegi jargib sealse lehe artikleid ilma nende toesust jarele kontrollimata, on ta sama rumal, kui see, kes igat ettejuhtuvat hadithit toepahe votab. Koik, mis on Jumalalt, ei sisalda vastuolusid, koik, mis inimestelt, see sisaldab. Ja nii palju kui on inimesi, on ka erinevaid arvamusi.

Kas sina usud islamit 100% tapselt samamoodi nagu koik teised sunna jargijad? Voi olete omakeskis jagunenud erinevate koolkondade jargijateks?

mis liiki kuu on "kamar"? kas see on yldtermin kuu kohta? voi taiskuu/noorkuu/sirp vms?
_________________
17:36

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 21 Feb 2008 08:11 am Post subject:

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Quote:
Miks te siis ei vota naiteid mujalt koraanist, seal on "moon" kohapeal hoopis teine sona ju.(kamar) ....ju ikka tahendab "shahr" "month`i"

nojaa, aga siis on araabiakeeles ju veel eraldi sona naiteks tahistmaks kuusirpi. Ja see vist ikka pole "kamar"? Sel juhul, kui "kuusirbi" jaoks on eraldi sona, siis ka "taiskuu" jaoks on eraldi sona, antud juhul "shahr"

Shiin-ha-Ra
make it notable/known/manifest/public/infamous (in a bad or good sense), hire/contract for a month, stay a month, month old, month, new MOON, MOON, full MOON, any evil thing that exposes its author to disgrace, a vice/fault or the like, big & bulky, reputable/eminent.
shahr n.m. (pl. shuhur and ashur)
Koraanis kohtab seda sona:
2:185, 2:185, 2:194, 2:194, 2:197, 2:217, 2:226, 2:234, 4:92, 5:2, 5:97, 9:2, 9:5, 9:36, 9:36, 34:12, 34:12, 46:15, 58:4, 65:4, 97:3

Oled kuulnud rahvaparimusi taiskuu teeamdel? Sellest on juba muinasjuttudes palju pajatatud. libahundiks muutumised jne Ja muinasjuttudes on alati tiba tott, mingi allegooria, peidetud tahendus.. Taiskuu on moneti eriline. Ja Koraan paistab seda kinnitavat.

Qaf-Miim-Ra
alqamara/the MOON
esinemised Koraanis
6:77, 96, 7:54, 10:5, 12:4, 13:2, 14:33, 16:12, 21:33, 22:18, 25:61, 29:61, 31:29, 35:13, 36:39, 36:40, 39:5, 41:37, 41:37, 54:1, 55:5, 71:16, 74:32, 75:8, 75:9, 84:18, 91:2

allikas: http://nadeem.reflekterselv.com/rootsearch.php
see siis yks tore sonastik Koraani uurimiseks
_________________
17:36

Last edited by fennek on 21 Feb 2008 09:49 am; edited 1 time in total

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 21 Feb 2008 12:29 pm Post subject:

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Anonymous wrote:
Tegin siin selle jarjekordse free-mindsi artikli lahti ja esimen asi mis vastu vaatas oli mingi vale:

Free-minds:

"The single most overlooked clue regarding Pilgrimage is regarding the “audience”. Abraham is calling out to “mankind” and not to the “believers or Muslims”. This information poses a serious problem to the belief that Pilgrimage is a set of rituals as non-believers would not be able to identify with any of these rituals and would thus not carry them out."


Kui hajj kaib to Sacred Mosque...siis sinna ei tohi uskumatud minna:

9:28 O ye who believe! Truly the Pagans are unclean; so let them not, after this year of theirs, approach the Sacred Mosque. And if ye fear poverty, soon will Allah enrich you, if He wills, out of His bounty, for Allah is All-knowing, All-wise.

9:18 The mosques of Allah shall be visited and maintained by such as believe in Allah and the Last Day, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, and fear none (at all) except Allah. It is they who are expected to be on true guidance.

Mis siin enam edasi lugeda, yks vale, siis k6ik vale!

inimesed on ekslikud oma arvamustega.
antud arutelus aga ei oma see erilist tähtsust, kas hajj on kõigile või aint moslemitele, sest nagu ma aru saan kuulub see Bakkas Jeruusalemas olev pühamu moslemitele.

ja see, et ma freemindsi lehelt ühe viite toon ei näita kindlasti mitte seda, et ma kõige seal lehel kirjutatuga nõus olen. Mis peaks ehk ütlematagi selge olema...

inimene peab ikka ise kaasa mõtlema, ehk ära tundma, mis on tõde ja mis ei pruugi olla ja selle põhjal omad järeldused tegema Koraanis toodud õpetuse kohaselt selliste situatsioonide kohta.
aga nagu Fennekki juba välja tõi, on traditsioonilistel islami sektidel just see punkt erinev, sest usutakse ju kõike, mida mingi sekti usuliidrid kuulutavad. <- no ka kindlasti ei saa siin üldistusi teha aga valdavalt peaks see nii olema.

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Guest







Posted: 21 Feb 2008 12:42 pm Post subject:

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Tarmo sa ytled, et Jeruusalema Al-Aksa mosk on see kuhu tuleb tegelt hajji teha:) et see ongi see " masjed al haraam"

Kas oled kuulnud sellisest asjast nagu" the night jurney" AL-Isra?

17:1 LIMITLESS in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable House of Worship [at Mecca] to the Remote House of Worship [,at Jerusalem] - the environs of which We had blessed -so that We might show him some of Our symbols: for, verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-seeing.

Kui ma nyyd araabi keeles loen siis FROM MAJED AL HARAAM TO MASJED AL AKSA.


Ja palun selget konkreetset vastust: Millal hajj ja millal ramadaan?? Miks te hakkate muudest asjadest raakima kogu aeg?

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Guest







Posted: 21 Feb 2008 12:47 pm Post subject:

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v6tame yhe teema ikka korraga

Ja muideks hasti naljakas Tarma, et algul ytlesid, et see artikkel seal lehel seletab koik ilusti hajji kohta ja siis kui ma nende vea/vale Koraaniga ara t6estasin, siis sa ytled, et see polegi nii oluline

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 21 Feb 2008 01:30 pm Post subject:

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Anonymous wrote:
Ja palun selget konkreetset vastust: Millal hajj ja millal ramadaan?? Miks te hakkate muudest asjadest raakima kogu aeg?[/size]
see sinu küsimus on ju MUU teema, kui selle teema pealkirja vaadata...
Quote:

Tarmo sa ytled, et Jeruusalema Al-Aksa mosk on see kuhu tuleb tegelt hajji teha:) et see ongi see " masjed al haraam"

Kas oled kuulnud sellisest asjast nagu" the night jurney" AL-Isra?

17:1 LIMITLESS in His glory is He who transported His servant by night from the Inviolable House of Worship [at Mecca] to the Remote House of Worship [,at Jerusalem] - the environs of which We had blessed -so that We might show him some of Our symbols: for, verily, He alone is all-hearing, all-seeing.
ma ei ole ise veel midagi väitnud, tõin sulle vaid ühe sinu arusaamisele oponeeriva artikli lugeda...

mis sa selle kirjakohaga öelda tahad? mina tahan sulle seda kirjakohta vaadates öelda vaid seda, et tõlkija on pannud OMA arusaamise järgi Koraani teksti vahele sulud.

nagu pudru ja kapsad on need quotimised siin segamini. st väga raske välja lugeda, kes mida ütleb

Nojah. Kuna eelmine foorum ei võimaldanud teemade kopeerimist failide kaupa, tuli teha kõige tavalisem copy-paste ja toepoolest tsitaadid kadusid selle tõttu. Kuna foorumis oli üle 1000 postituse, siis nende ükshaaval loetavaks tegemine võtaks päris palju aega. Samas kui ikka väga püüda, saab aru küll, millest jutt

Kel janu sel jalad ja kel teema vastu huvi, see deshifreerigu ja kui siis ka aru ei saa, võib ju alati uue teema teha