VF:Kuidas te palvetate?

Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 09 Jul 2007 08:41 pm Post subject: ?

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kuidas palvetate?

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Sarah
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Posted: 10 Jul 2007 03:42 pm Post subject:

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ma palvetan tapselt nii nagu seda tegi Rasuul Allah minimaalselt 5x paevas, alhamdullillah

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Sarah
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Posted: 11 Jul 2007 08:28 pm Post subject:

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Oleks huvitav teda kuidas te freemindsi jalgijad palvetate?

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 12 Jul 2007 07:30 am Post subject:

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free-mindsi järgijate kohta ei oska täpselt öelda, sealne rahvas on nii erinevate tõekspidamistega. Yks on nende palveis yhine: palveted pühendatakse Jumalale.

mina palvetan nii, nagu Jumal Koraanis õpetab. Enne palvet puhastan end nagu 5:6 kirjas, Palve pyhendan ainult Jumalale. Kõik Koraanis mainitud palve elemendid (asendid, hingeline aspekt) sooritan samuti. Kuna Koraanis pole kordasid (mitu korda yht või teist liigutust teha) mainitud, kyll aga kestust (näiteks õhtuste palvete ajal), siis sinnakanti rihingi.

Võimas tunne, kui palve silma märjaks võtab (või vahel konkreetselt nutma ajab) ja kogu keha endasse haarab. See on midagi seletmatult head, rahulikku, sooja, valget. Ei teki kahtlust ka et kontakt Jumalaga on loodud. Raske kirjeldada, kui ise pole kogenud. Sama olen täheldanud ka Koraani lugedes. Kui juba palve ja Koraani lugemine annab niivõrd positiivse laengu, milline see pärastelu siis olema saab? Ei jõua ära oodata

Ja see, et palvetele tõepoolest vastatakse - see on midagi nii hämmastavat, et vahel ei suuda nagu isegi uskuda et see toimib. Aga see toimib ja üsna igal alal. Vahel tuleb vastus kiiremini, vahel aeglasemalt (st vahel tuleb olla kannatlik), aga ta tuleb. Ja kui vahel jääb soovitu saamata, siis tuleb tingimata hiljem välja põhjus, miks see mulle poleks hea ega kasulik olnud. Ja siis tänan Jumalat, et ta mu rumalat palvet ei täitnud. Kes usaldab Jumalat, ei pea kahetsema, seda on elu korduvalt näidanud!

Kõik tänu ja ülistused kuuluvad meie Loojale, meie Isandale ja põhjusega!
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Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 13 Jul 2007 12:54 am Post subject:

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Mina palvetan nii, nagu traditsiooniline islam opetab,nii kaua kui see on vastavuses Koraaniga.Muhamedi nime jatan valja,kuna palved tuleb puhendada vaid Jumalale.
Mulle jaab arusaamatuks, miks suniidid peavad palve uksikasju nii tahtsaks.Palve on eelkoige suhtlemine Jumalaga.Miks pannakse nii palju rohku kindlatele numbritele rakade arvu kohta.Kui teed kogemata liiga palju "rakasid" pead kohe vabandust paluma.Et, kui teed liiga vahe,sellest saaks veel aru,kuigi Koraan ei maini midagi rakade kohta.Kas Jumal siis pahandab, kui liiga palju palvetada?
Aga uldiselt jah, traditsionalistide viisis palvetada pole midagi viga,valja arvatud Muhamedile ja Aabrahamile onnistuse palumine,mis kaib sonaselgelt Koraanile vastu.

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Sarah
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Posted: 18 Sep 2007 10:46 am Post subject:

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ja kui tihti sa umbes nii palvetad...oleks kohe huvitav kuulda mis sa Koraanist oma peaga valja loed?

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Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 19 Sep 2007 12:50 am Post subject:

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3 korda.Vaata seda artiklit "palvetamisest" ,seal on uksikasjad kirjas.
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"Ma olen alistanud end Maailmade Isandale"(2:131)

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Sarah
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Posted: 19 Sep 2007 11:49 am Post subject:

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Koraan raagib palju rohkem kui 3 korrast kuhu te need jatate siis

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Sarah
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Posted: 19 Sep 2007 11:56 am Post subject:

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Nektub wrote:
3 korda.Vaata seda artiklit "palvetamisest" ,seal on uksikasjad kirjas.


raagi ikka oma arvamust, ma ei viitsi neid internetiartikkleid labi lugedagi need niiii pikad....ma lihtne inimene raagi tapselt ja otseselt

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Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 19 Sep 2007 04:59 pm Post subject:

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Kust sa leiad Koraanist viited rohkem, kui kolmele palvusele?
Mina tean vaid:

Salat Al Fajr(24:58)
Salat Al Esha(24:58)
Salat Al Wusta(2:238)

Midagi muud ma pole leidnud.Kuna Koraan on uksikasjalik, siis jareliklut rohkem palvusi pole.
_________________
"Ma olen alistanud end Maailmade Isandale"(2:131)

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Sarah
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Posted: 19 Sep 2007 05:58 pm Post subject:

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No vaatame siis seda asja lahemalt:

20:130 Therefore be patient with what they say, and celebrate (constantly) the praises of thy Lord, before the rising of the sun, and before its setting; yea, celebrate them for part of the hours of the night, and at the sides of the day: that thou mayest have (spiritual) joy.

Sellest ayaast saame juba 5x paevas:

17:78 Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

Kui siit otse lugeda peab palvetama keskpaevast juni hilisohtuni, kui see oleks moeldamattu kuna inimesed peavad ju tool ka kaima, kuid Koraanis on kirjas et palve on fixeeritud aegadel, nii siis ytles prohvet meile et kekskpaevas kuni hilis ohtuni on kolm palvet Parast keskpaeva, ohtu saabudes, paikse loojangul, ja oosel. Neid koiki kordi toetavad ka teised ayaad koraanis.


11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the dayand at the approaches of the night: For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):

39:9 Is one who worships devoutly during the hour of the night prostrating himself or standing (in adoration),

Sinul puudub naiteks "night prayer"? on kaks eri asja ohtune palve ja oine palve ja sul puudub veel parastlounane palve

73:2 Keep awake in prayer at night, all but a small part....

30:17 So (give) glory to Allah, when ye reach evening and when ye rise in the morning;
30:18 Yea, to Him be praise, in the heavens and on earth; and in the afternoon and when the day begins to decline.



4:103 When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times


Millised on need tapsed ajad millal palvetada? Jumal utleb et palveta fikseeritud aegadel, kuid kui ma ajjast loen et palvet ohtul voi hommikul siis mis on see fikseeritud aeg? ohtu ja hommik on pikk aeg?

Koraanis on KOIK detailideni kirjas, seda meile Prohvet ka opetas.

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Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
Posts: 312
Location: Dublin

Posted: 19 Sep 2007 10:07 pm Post subject:

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Sarah wrote:


11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the dayand at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):

Selles ayas raagitakse KAHEST, mitte kolmest palvusest.Ma soovitaksin sul minu artikli labi lugeda,eestikeelne ja lihtne aru saada.Mul pole nii palju aega ,et napuga jarge ajada.Sorry.


Sinul puudub naiteks "night prayer"? on kaks eri asja ohtune palve ja oine palve ja sul puudub veel parastlounane palve

mul oleks kaks kusimust sulle:Kust sa leiad Koraanis vihjeid, millal algavad ja loppevad palvused Asr ja Magrib?
Millal sa sooritad palvust Wusta?


Millised on need tapsed ajad millal palvetada? Jumal utleb et palveta fikseeritud aegadel, kuid kui ma ajjast loen et palvet ohtul voi hommikul siis mis on see fikseeritud aeg? ohtu ja hommik on pikk aeg?

Need fiktseeritud ajad on siiski moningased ajaperioodid.Ega Jumal ei eelda, et Tema sulased sooritaksid palveid tapsetel minutitel.



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"Ma olen alistanud end Maailmade Isandale"(2:131)

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 20 Sep 2007 07:09 am Post subject:

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"And seek help through patience, and through the Salat/Connection. It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble" (2:45)

"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat/Connection, for the Salat/Connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)

salat= yhendus, link (i.k connection/link). Moni on tolkinud selle kui kontaktpalve. Aga sonal puudub sisuliselt seos sonaga "palvetama". Kui "salat" kaitseb inimesi kurja eest, siis kuidas on voimalik, et osad neist, kes 5x paevas palvetavad, teevad tegusid, mis Koraanis keelatud? (enese ohkulaskmine naiteks). Yks kahest: kas Jumal valetas (mis on voimatu) voi on "salat" viisis midagi viga, kuidas seda tehakse. Akki ikka ei ole tegu pelgalt rituaaliga?


"And you shall hold the Salat at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night*. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember." (11:114)

"You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)

Siin on kirjas, millal "salat" ajad on:

11:114 ytleb et paeva kahes otsas, o"o"poolel. Ja 17:78 ytleb et paikeseloojangust kuni oopimeduseni ja Koraan koidiku ajal (koidik on teatavasti hommikune hamar aeg kuni paikesetousuni)

vt ka artikkel:
http://free-minds.org/articles/quranic/salat.htm
kus asja point on pikemalt valja toodud, kus koik asjassepuutuvad detailid Koraanist on kokku korjatud.

mis puutub ylejaanud varssidesse, siis nagu naha, pole neis otseselt mainitud, et need kasud on seotud "salat"-ga

Sarah, palun too enda poolt tsiteeritud varsid valja, jattes sona "salat" oma originaalkujule, kus ta esineb. Need varsid, kus seda pole, ei raagi ilmselgelt "salat"-st vaid raagivadki sellest, mida nad ytlevad - Jumala ylistamisest, meelespidamisest jne..
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Sarah
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Posted: 20 Sep 2007 09:39 am Post subject:

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Nektub wrote:


11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the dayand at the approaches of the night For those things, that are good remove those that are evil: Be that the word of remembrance to those who remember (their Lord):

Selles ayas raagitakse KAHEST, mitte kolmest palvusest.Ma soovitaksin sul minu artikli labi lugeda,eestikeelne ja lihtne aru saada.Mul pole nii palju aega ,et napuga jarge ajada.Sorry.




11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night


1. the beginning of the day
2. end of the day
3. AND approach of night


17:78 Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

Mitte paikese loojangust, vaid ajast mill paike hakkab langema, st. parast keskpaeva kuni oopimeduseni!

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 20 Sep 2007 01:29 pm Post subject:

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Quote:
11:114 And establish regular prayers at the two ends of the day and at the approaches of the night


Quote:
"And you shall hold the Salat at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night*. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember." (11:114)


Sarah, kui arst ytleb sulle et vota 1 tablet tablett paeva kahes otsas ja oo poolsetel osadel.

Mitu tabletti sa votad?

Vaata nyyd selle aya erinevaid tolkeid. Yhes on tolgitud "oo saabudes", teises aga "oopoolsetes osades". Araabiakeelne sonayhend, mida on kasutatud, tahendab nii paikeseloojangut kui ka tousu, seega oleks eksitav tolkida ainult pool sellest.

Paeva kaks otsa - ilma selgituseta voib see ju vabalt olla ka keskpaev ja sydaoo. Kuna aga on juurde mainitud et oopoolsetel osadel, siis jarelikult peavad need paeva kaks otsa olema siis kui paike loojunud/tousmas

fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 20 Sep 2007 04:01 pm Post subject:

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Quote:
17:78 Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony.

Mitte paikese loojangust, vaid ajast mill paike hakkab langema, st. parast keskpaeva kuni oopimeduseni!


17:78 You shall uphold the salaat from the sun's "DULUK", to darkness of the night, and the Qur'aan at dawn; the Qur'aan at dawn is witnessed.

Vaata ka yht vagagi veenvat uurimust sel teemal:

What is "DULUK" ? This word is mentioned only one time in the Qur'aan. Its root is DLK, which means "to rub or to massage". "Duluk" can also mean "declination" but it does not mean "declination at noon". The sun can only appear to be "rubbing" when it rubs the horizon at sunrise and at sunset, but when it rubs at sunrise, it is not declining but ascending. The context (17:78) implies the meaning "the rubbing of the sun at sunset" (the context of the verse suggests that it is at sunset and not at sunrise).

When the sun rubs the horizon at sunset, it is also declining at that time, thus both meanings "rubbing" and "declination" fit.

LI DULUKI AL-SHAMSI can only be interpreted as the sun's rubbing of the horizon and declination at sunset. With the preposition LI, which means (in this case) just after, the very precise interpretation of "li duluki al-shamsi" would be just after the sun goes beyond the horizon. So if we take this interpretation, then the first part of the verse would be translated as follows:

"Uphold the "salaat"/connection from when the sun goes beyond the horizon (after sunset) up to darkness of the night (twilight)".

The Qur'aan at dawn is synonymous with the salaat al-fajr; as one of the most important parts of upholding salaat is oration/reading of the Qur'aan.

Therefore this verse also confirms the same two times of upholding salaat as 24:58 and thus 24:58 is consistent with 17:78.

TWO POINTS:

Firstly, if "duluk" is interpreted as "declination at noon", then how come the noon salaat is not mentioned in 24:58, where salaat al-fajr and salaat al-isha are mentioned ?

Secondly AND MORE IMPORTANTLY:

Even if this verse is wrongly translated as mentioning decline of sun from noon up to the darkness of the night, still Allah is mentioning ONE TIME PERIOD and referring to ONE SALAAT in that time period because it says "uphold the salaat (singular) from the sun's duluk until darkness of the night" in 17:78, and not "uphold the SALAWAAT (plural) .............".

How can someone interpret this one salaat in that one time period as two salaats (noon and isha), when clearly that time period is mentioned for singular SALAAT in 17:78 ? The false "noon" meaning is PURE CONJECTURE based on excess baggage of the sectarian notion of al-islaam based on the fabricated hearsays falsely attributed to Prophet Muhammad. 17:78 refers to one salaat during that one time period of "from the sun's duluk to the darkness of the night", which is salaat al-isha, and to one salaat at dawn signified by the dawn Reading, and thus the correct translation can only be "from the setting of the sun to darkness of the night".

vaata ka ylejaanud arutelu selle varsi tolkimise teemal:
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14283.0
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Sarah
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Posted: 20 Sep 2007 06:03 pm Post subject:

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kui sa tahad araabi keelseid sonu tolkida ja neile leida oige tahendus Koraanis siis tee seda ise mitte ara loe kuskilt netilehelt ja vota puhta kullana. On inimesi kes voivad musta ka valgeks raakida.

Ma ei viitsi arutleda sel teemal kui sa muidkui copy paste oma freemaindsi lehelt teed.

Peace!

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 20 Sep 2007 06:33 pm Post subject:

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Quote:
kui sa tahad araabi keelseid sonu tolkida ja neile leida oige tahendus Koraanis siis tee seda ise mitte ara loe kuskilt netilehelt ja vota puhta kullana. On inimesi kes voivad musta ka valgeks raakida.


su jutus on point tegelikult. ent samas - kas mitte sinu tolke puhul sama pole - sina ju ka copyd ja paste'id kellegi teise tehtud tolke siia

kumb meist pada, kumb katel?
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Sarah
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Posted: 20 Sep 2007 07:15 pm Post subject:

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Hmmm.... ei maleta ammu et oleks kuskilt materjali votnud.

Copyn ja Pastin Koraani kuid motted ja jutt ikka oma

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 21 Sep 2007 08:14 am Post subject:

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aga iga Koraani tolge on sisuliselt kellegi interpretatsioon, kellegi arusaam Koraanist eks
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Last edited by fennek on 21 Sep 2007 10:28 am; edited 1 time in total

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 21 Sep 2007 10:27 am Post subject:

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Ok, tulles tagasi 17:78 juurde ja sonastikust jargi vaadanuna voin kindlalt vaita et "duluk-al shams" on paikeseloojang Lane'i Leksikoni jargi

vaata jargi dal-lam-kaf

Lane's Lexicon, Volume 3, pages:72,73

Seega sinu tolge,
Quote:
17:78 Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony


kus see oli tolgitud kui keskpaev, on ebakorrektne.
Seega ei loe sellest varsist kuidagi valja 5x paevas. Mina naen ainult 2!

Ja veel yks fakt, mis sedasama kinnitab:
Selle mainitud ajaperioodi jooksul 17:78 raagitakse yhest palvest (salaat= ainsuses) ja mitte mitmest (salawaat=mitmuses)

Aqimi assalata lidulooki alshshamsi.....

ja seal, kus sinu tolkes on pandud morning prayer - araabiakeeles pole sinna pandud "palve" vaid on lihtsalt et Koraan hommikul :
waqur-ana alfajri

paris hea allikas sonatyvede jargikontrollimiseks. lase kaia ja kontrolli yle
http://www.studyquran.co.uk/PRLonline.htm
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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posted: 07 Oct 2007 09:02 pm Post subject:

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fennek wrote:
Kõik Koraanis mainitud palve elemendid (asendid, hingeline aspekt) sooritan samuti.

oskad sa öelda kirjakohti, kus on nimetatud elemendid?

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 07 Oct 2007 10:51 pm Post subject:

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Quote:
oskad sa öelda kirjakohti, kus on nimetatud elemendid?


panen sulle yhe lingi, kus on palvetamise teemadel arutlusi. Vastavad varsinumbrid on sealsamas aruteludes olemas:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=14695.0

vaata sealt esimese lehe keskel on tanveer'il pandud paris mitu head linki vastavasisuliste aruteludega. Seal on seda teemat lahatud ikka paris pohjalikult, analyysides erinevaid kirjakohti..

nyyd moned varsid asenditest:

9:112 They are the repenters, the worshipers, the thankful, the devout, the kneeling, the prostrating, the advocates of good and preventers of evil, and the keepers of the boundaries of God; and give good news to the believers.

2:125 And We have made the Sanctuary to be a model for the people and a security. And you shall take the station of Abraham for connection. And We had entrusted to Abraham and Ishmael: "You shall purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are devoted, and the kneeling, the prostrating."
3:43 "O Mary, be dutiful to your Lord and prostrate and kneel with those who kneel."
3:113 They are not all the same, from the people of the Scripture are a nation that is upright; they recite God's revelations during the night and they prostrate.

Siin varsis on kirjeldatud kontaktpalve pidamist:
4:102 And if you are with them and you hold the Connection (ar.k. salat ehk eestikeeli kontakt, kontaktpalve) for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet connected come and connect with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution.

15:98 So glorify with the praise of your Lord, and be of those who prostrate.
13:15 And to God prostrate all who are in the heavens and the Earth, willingly and unwillingly, as do their shadows in the morning and the evening.
17:107 Say: "Believe in it or do not believe in it. Those who have been given the knowledge before it, when it is recited to them, they fall to their chins prostrating."

siin on koik kolm asendit kirjas:
22:26 And We have appointed to Abraham the location of the Sanctuary: "Do not set up anyone with Me, and purify My Sanctuary for those who visit, and those who are standing, and the kneeling, the prostrating."

25:60 And if they are told: "Prostrate to the Almighty." They say: "And what is the Almighty? Shall we prostrate to what you order us?" And it increases their aversion.
25:64 And those who stay awake for their Lord, in prostration and standing.

32:15 The only people who believe in Our revelations are those whom when they are reminded by them, they fall prostrating, and they glorify the praise of their Lord, and they are not arrogant.

39:9 Is one better who is dutiful during the night, prostrating and standing, fearing the Hereafter, and seeking the mercy of his Lord? Say: "Are those who know equal to those who do not know?" Only those who possess understanding will remember.

50:40 And from the night glorify Him, and after prostrating.


See oli siis asenditest. Lihtsalt valik varsse. Konteksti void ise jargi vaadata Koraanist. St nendele eelneva ja jargneva..
Nyyd siis ylejaanu:

MIS ON PALVE POINT?

"And seek help through patience, and through the Salat/Connection. It is a difficult thing, but not so for the humble" (2:45)

"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat/Connection, for the Salat/Connection prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)

MILLAL?
"And you shall hold the Salat at the two edges of the day, during the near parts of the night*. The good deeds take away the bad. This is a reminder to those who remember." (11:114)
"You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)
* The above verse is normally translated as referring to three Salat times (the two edges of the day and a part of the night), however, the Arabic word used is "zulfan" which is a plural form meaning "the near parts" (see 34:37, 39:3 for the singular use of the word). The correct meaning therefore is the two edges of the day, moving towards the adjacent parts of the night.

KEHA PUHASTAMINE
"O you who believe, if you rise to hold the Salat, then wash your faces and your hands up to the elbows, and wipe your heads and your feet to the ankles; and if you have had intercourse, then you shall bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or you have excreted feces, or you have had sexual contact with the women, and you cannot not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and your hands with it. God does not want to place any hardship on you, but He wants to cleanse you and to complete His blessings upon you that you may be appreciative." (5:6)

SELGE PEA

"O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving." (4:43)

GRUPIS VOI YKSI:
"And if you are with them and you hold the Salat for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet connected come and connect with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution." (4:102)

"The angels called to him whilst he was standing, Yusali (Connecting), in the temple enclosure: 'God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright.'" (3:39)

KINDLAS ASENDIS:
"Maintain the connections, and the balanced Salat; and stand dutiful for God. But if you are in a state of worry, then you may do so while walking or riding. If you become secure, then remember God as He has taught you what you did not know." (2:238-239)

"Those who remember God while standing, and sitting, and on their sides, and they ponder in the creation of the heavens and the Earth: “Our Lord you did not create this without purpose, be You glorified, spare us the retribution of the Fire!" (3:191)

EESMARK VOIKS KA OLLA
"And if My servants ask you about Me, I am near answering the calls of those who call to Me. So let them respond to Me and believe in Me that they may be guided." (2:186)

"Say: 'Call on God or call on the Almighty. Whichever it is you call on, for to Him are the best names.' And do not be too loud in making your Salat, nor too quite; but seek a path in between." (17:110)

OTSI PELGUPAIKA SAATANA EEST
"When you read the Qur’an, you shall seek refuge with God from Satan the outcast. He has no authority over those who believe, and who put their trust in their Lord. His authority is over those who follow him, and set him up as a partner.” (16:98-100)

RETSITEERI KIRJUTIST:
"Recite what is inspired to you of the Scripture, and hold the Salat, for the Salat prohibits evil and vice; but certainly the remembrance of God is the greatest. God knows everything you do." (29:45)

"You shall hold the Salat at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed." (17:78)

KYSI JA SULLE ANTAKSE
"Surely, those who have said: 'Our Lord is God,' then they did right, the angels will descend upon them: 'You shall not fear, nor shall you grieve. Rejoice in the good news of Paradise that you have been promised. We are your allies in this worldly life and in the Hereafter. In it you will have anything your soul desires, and in it you will have anything you ask for.'" (41:30-31)
"It was then that Zachariah called on his Lord, he said: 'My Lord, grant me from You a good progeny, You are the hearer of prayers.' The angels called to him whilst he was standing, Yusali (Connecting), in the temple enclosure: 'God gives you good tidings of John, authenticating the word from God, and a master, and steadfast, and a prophet from the upright..'" (3:38-39)
LOPETA YHENDUS (SALAT)
"And if you are with them and you hold the Connection for them, then let a group from amongst them stand with you and let them bring their weapons; and when they have prostrated then let them stand guard from behind; and let a group who has not yet connected come and connect with you, and let them be wary and let them bring their weapons with them. The rejecters hope that you would neglect your weapons and goods so they can come upon you in one blow. There is no sin upon you if you are impeded by rainfall, or if you are ill, that you place down your weapons. And be wary. God has prepared for the rejecters a humiliating retribution." (4:102)
"And say: 'Praise be to God who has not taken a son, nor does He have a partner in sovereignty, nor does He have an ally out of weakness.' And glorify Him greatly." (17:111)


USKLIKUD VS ALISTUJAD:
“O you who believe, do not approach the Salat while you are intoxicated, until you know what you are saying. Nor if you have had intercourse, unless traveling, until you bathe. And if you are ill, or traveling, or one of you has excreted feces, or you had sexual contact with the women, and could not find water, then you shall select from the clean soil; you shall wipe your faces and hands. God is Pardoning, Forgiving.” (The Message 4:43)
“So when you are done making the Salat, then remember God while standing, or sitting, or on your sides; then, when you are relieved, you shall honor the Salat. Indeed, the Salat for the believers is a timed decree.” (The Message 4:103)

vaata hoolega, kas markad erinevust

“The Nomads said: ‘We believe.’ Say: ‘You have not believed; but you should Say: 'We have submitted (Aslamna)’, for belief has not yet entered into your hearts.’ If you obey God and His messenger, He will not put any of your works to waste. God is Forgiver, Merciful. Believers (Muninoon) are those who believe in God and His messenger, then they became without doubt, and they strive with their money and their lives in the cause of God. These are the truthful ones.” (49:14-15)

ETTEVAATUST!
"The devil only wants to cause strife between you through intoxicants and gambling, and to repel you away from remembering God and from the Salat. Will you be deterred?" (5:91)

"Then generations came after them who lost the Salat, and followed desires. They will find their consequences." (The Message 19:59)

"Those who believe, then reject, then believe, then reject, then they increase in rejection; God was neither to forgive them nor to guide them to the path." (4:137)


vat selline valik varsse sai siia kokku. Eks ise vaata, mis kasu neist saad voi mida sina sealt valja loed ja kuimidagi huvitavat avastad ,siis jaga ikka meiega ka!
ilusat ohtut ja rahu!
_________________
17:36

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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 09 Oct 2007 05:13 pm Post subject:

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seega sain kinnitust sellele, mida ennegi arvasin, et ei ole olemas ühtegi spetsiaalset nö "riitust" salati pidamiseks.
pole ka kindlaid asendeid.
peale selle, et sul on valida kolma variandi vahel - seista, põlvitada, lamaskil. Koraani salmid ei võimalda täpsemat asendit eeltoodust kokku panna. Nt et kui sa seisad, siis hoia oma käed nii või jalad naa.
Siiski on öeldud selle maaslamamise kohta, et lõug vastu maad. See on ka enamvähem kõik asendite koha pealt.

seega tekib mul küsimus
fennek wrote:
Kuna Koraanis pole kordasid (mitu korda yht või teist liigutust teha) mainitud
et mis liigutusest on jutt?
samuti on mulle meelde jäänud, et kuskil rääkisid sa käte asendist.

ma ise ei ole õnneks ühegi koraanivälise islami õpetusega kokku puutunud aga kangesti jääb mulje, et sa oled mõnest sellisest matti võtnud? Või eksin?

Kui kogu vjalik info on Koraanis, siis nii olgu!
Rahu.

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 10 Oct 2007 08:19 am Post subject:

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Quote:
et mis liigutusest on jutt?
samuti on mulle meelde jäänud, et kuskil rääkisid sa käte asendist.

ma ise ei ole õnneks ühegi koraanivälise islami õpetusega kokku puutunud aga kangesti jääb mulje, et sa oled mõnest sellisest matti võtnud? Või eksin?

Kui kogu vjalik info on Koraanis, siis nii olgu!


sa said jah vaheke valesti minust aru. justnimelt selle koha pealt, et mis mu jutu point oli

ma raakisin neist liigutustest, mis traditsionalistide vaadete kohalt on kohustuslik osa palvest: a la palve algul tostad kaed korvade juurde, siis paned rinnale, (kusagile kohu ja rinna vahele), kusjuures parem kasi katku vasakut.. siis maas polvili istudes shahadat lausudes (eestikeeli umbes et ma tunnistan et pole jumalat peale Jumala jne) tuleb polvedel oleval parema kae nimetissorm yles tosta jne jne jne jne

minu point oligi, et Koraanis pole seda absoluutselt mainitud - jarelikult ei saa see olla kohustulik osa palvest.

kordadest: traditsiooniline palve koosneb rakadest. (seda terminit "raka'a" Koraanis ei esine!!!). Yheks Rakaks loetakse jargnevat tsyklit: Seistes Jumala ylistamine, esimene Koraani peatykk+veel mone peatyki retsiteerimine kahes esimeses rakas, kummargile laskumine, pysti tousmine, kapuli laskumine, otsmiku&ninaga maa puudutamine, polvili istukile tousmine, uuesti otsmiku&ninaga maa puudutamine..

iga asendi puhul on kindlad araabiakeelsed asjad, mida lausuda(just-just araabia keeles, sest vaidetavalt muukeelne palve ei lahe arvesse). Rakasid tehakse jargnevalt: koidupalve ajal 2+2vabatahtlikku, mis on osa sunnast ja tugevalt soovitatav, lounapalve ajal 4, parastlounapalve ajal 4, hamariku ajal 3, oopalve ajal 4+2+2, millest need 2+2 on vabatahtlikud tungivalt soovitatavad palved.. siis on veel keskoised palved, milles veel rohkem rakasid, kui ma oigesti maletan.. siis veel ramadaani ekstra palved jne jne Kusjuures systeem on veelgi komplitseeritum: kui palvetaja oma pohipalves unustab mone raka tegemata voi teeb mone kogemata rohkem, tuleb sooritada 2 lisarakat, noh nagu penaltiks voi nii..

Ma usun, et sulle ongi just asja lihtsamakstegev faktor see, et sa pole kokku puutunud traditsioonilise palvetamisega, seega on sul palju vahem vordlusi nendega.. siiski islam.pri.ee lehel on traditsioonilisest palvetamisest juttu. loe, paris huvitav on. vist olid isegi videod yleval et paremini visualiseeruks.. vordle neid siis oma teadmistega Koraanist..

Peamised vead, mida mina naen traditsioonilises palvetamise viisis:
*puhastumine enne palvet erineb oma rituaalilt oluliselt Koraanis mainitud. Muidu polekski asi ehk nii hull - aga vaita, et koik need lisavidinad onkohustuslikud ja ilma nendeta muutub puhastumine kehtetuks, on see, mis seostub iidolikummardamisega (=aktsepteerimaks muud seadsueandjat peale Jumala - Jumal on oma seaduse Koraanina juba andnud).Koraanis on muide paris tapselt kirjas mis muudab puhastumise kehtetuks: enese tyhjendamine wc-s ja seksuaalvahekord..

Koraanis on kirjas: peske kaed kyynarnukkideni, peske nagu, pyhkige yle pea, pyhkige/peske jalalabad pahkluudeni
sunniidid opetavad: peske kaed 3x, alustades paremast kaest, loputage suu 3x, tommake vett ninna 3x ja nuusake valja, peske nagu 3x, peske korvad ja kael, pyhkige yle juuksed, nii et juuksejuurteni tungib vesi, peske kaevarred kyynarnukkideni, pyhkige yle jalad pahkluudeni.. voib-olla unustasin mone elemendi valja, aga umbes nii see on. erinevad opetlased vaidlevad veel selle yle, kas vesi peab nirisema randme poolt kyynarnuki poole voi vastupidi..

*Muhammadile & Aabrahamile & nende peredele onnistuste palumine kohustusliku osana palves. Arvestades et surnute teod on tehtud ja mingi palumine parast surma eda enam ei muuda, on see mottetu. Lisaks veel kask Koraanis, et ei tohi yhtegi prohvetit eelistada teisele : otsene rikkumine minuarust..
vaidetavalt jallegi on palve kehtetu, kui ykski neist osadest puudu on!

*palve lopus inglitega vestlemine, neile rahu soovimine(pea kaib paremale & vasakule):
otsene vastuolu Koraani varsiga, mille jargi kontaktpalve on AINULT JUMALA meelespidamiseks...

rohkem ei tule hetkel meelde..
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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
Posts: 96


Posted: 10 Oct 2007 08:47 am Post subject:

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kirjutasid siia üles terve rea paganlikke kombeid, millest ma isegi midagi teada ei taha
räägiks parem sellest, mida Koraani kohaselt peab tegema.
Puhastamise koha pealt on asi vägagi selge ja ma arvan, et seda teemat ei ole mõtet rohkem hetkel puutuda. Ka aegade koha pealt on juttu olnud juba küll ja küll. Kestvused on samuti Koraanis kirjas.

Seega niipalju kui mina hetkel aru saan, on Koraanis ettekirjutusi palvetamise viisi kohta väga vähe ehk peaaegu polegi. Järelikult kuna kõik vajalik on Koraanis kirjas, siis tuleb välja, et polegi mingit kindlat palvetamise viisi meile ettekirjutatud.

On öeldud vaid, et tee seda seistes, põlvili või lamaskil lõug vastu maad.
Kuidas mingeid keha osi hoida või kas neid liigutada, selle kohta ettekirjutused puuduvad. Samuti selle kohta, mida sa palve ajal tegema pead.
Kui keegi teab siia tuua mõne kirjakoha viimase lõigu täpsustamiseks, siis oleks hea.

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
Posts: 591
Location: London/Tartu

Posted: 10 Oct 2007 09:07 am Post subject:

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Quote:
Seega niipalju kui mina hetkel aru saan, on Koraanis ettekirjutusi palvetamise viisi kohta väga vähe ehk peaaegu polegi. Järelikult kuna kõik vajalik on Koraanis kirjas, siis tuleb välja, et polegi mingit kindlat palvetamise viisi meile ettekirjutatud.


Ettekirjutised siiski on. Ja paris kindlad lihtsalt mitte sellised, nagu traditsionalistid seda naevad.. Neile on tahtis rituaalne kylg, Koraanis on rohutatud rohkem vaimset aspekti. Rituaale on yldse vahe mainitud..

Quote:
On öeldud vaid, et tee seda seistes, põlvili või lamaskil lõug vastu maad.
Kuidas mingeid keha osi hoida või kas neid liigutada, selle kohta ettekirjutused puuduvad. Samuti selle kohta, mida sa palve ajal tegema pead.


Ent samas on Koraanis kirjas mis on palve eesmark ja mote.. Akki see ongi peamine? Akki polegi palve point niisama fyysiliselt taielda vaid pigem keskenduda millelegi? Teha tood oma hingega? Luua yhendus Jumalaga, tugevdada oma usku, eemalduda Saatanast ja tema trikkidest? See ei olegi nii vaikese tahtsusega.

Ma proovin otsida yles ka need kirjakohad, mis minu arusaamist mooda asjasse puutuvad ja minu sonu kinitavad, seda siis kui natuke rohkem aega saan, inshallah.