VF: Kuhu poole peame suunama salat?

fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
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Posted: 24 Jul 2007 03:06 pm Post subject:

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2:177 Piety is not to turn your faces towards the east and the west, but piety is one who believes in God and the Last Day, and the angels, and the Scripture, and the prophets, and who gives money out of love to the relatives, and the orphans, and the needy and the wayfarer, and those who ask, and to free the slaves; and who honors the Connection, and who contributes towards betterment; as well as those who keep their pledges when they make a pledge, and those who are patient in the face of good and bad and when in despair. These are the ones who have been truthful, and they are the righteous.

milised on yldse toendid Koraanis, et palve ajal tuleb oma nagu mekka poole suunata?
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Sarah
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Posted: 18 Sep 2007 10:38 am Post subject:

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2:144. We see the turning of thy face (for guidance) to the heavens: now Shall We turn thee to a Qibla that shall please thee. Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction. The People of the Book know well that that is the truth from their Lord. Nor is Allah unmindful of what they do.

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fennek



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Posted: 18 Sep 2007 12:39 pm Post subject:

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Turn then thy face in the direction of the Sacred Mosque: Wherever ye are, turn your faces in that direction.

hm. kui see, mida on tolgitud kui "sacred Mosque" tahendab toepoolest Mekkat ja seal asuvat fyysilist ehitist, siis oleme kyll plindris
arvestades maa kerakujulisust, voib asi raskeks minna voi siis ka mitte, sest ka selja selle moshee poole poorates, oleme tegelikult naoga sinnapoole, eks kui suunda arvestame mooda maa pinda liikudes..

aga kui nyyd arvestame juurde ka selle, et naiteks nao itta keerates vahime tegelikult kosmosega tott.. vota yks pall katte, pane yks pisike nukuke sinna seisma ja vaata natuke neid suundi. kui sa asud naiteks teisel pool maakera mekkast, siis peaksid oma pilgu suunama maakera sisemusse naiteks.. kui kusagil veerandi peal, siis suuna oma nagu ikkagi maha, aga hoopis teise nurga all.. ja need kes mekkas elavad, saavad siis taitsa otse vaadata mosheee poole..

miks on jaetud tolkimata sona QIBLA varsis?
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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posted: 22 May 2008 10:56 am Post subject:

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free-mindsi tõlge:

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: “You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.” Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

Aga millele tahaks tähelepanu juhtida on Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord.
Need, kellele on varem antud Raamat, palvetavad Jerusalema poole ja ei tea Mekkast mitte midagi.

Muuseas Eestis olles ei ole vahet kas Jerusalem või Mekka - need jäävad ühele joonele

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
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Posted: 22 May 2008 11:55 am Post subject:

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tarmo wrote:
free-mindsi tõlge:

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: “You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.” Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

Aga millele tahaks tähelepanu juhtida on Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord.
Need, kellele on varem antud Raamat, palvetavad Jerusalema poole ja ei tea Mekkast mitte midagi.

Muuseas Eestis olles ei ole vahet kas Jerusalem või Mekka - need jäävad ühele joonele


mis on mingil fyysilisel kohal maakeral pistmist Jumala teenimisega? Vat selline kysimus vaevab mi nd juba pikemat aega.. mekka, jeruusalemm - mis vahet sel on? aga akki on see sacred temple meis endis? et kusiganes me poleks, peame end selles suunas hoidma. Jutt ei ole ainult palvetamisest..
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fennek



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Posted: 23 May 2008 06:18 am Post subject:

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ja veel - kas kristlased palvetavad jeruusalemma poole?

ma voin kyll eksida ent fyysiliste kohtade poole kummardamine/palvetamine lohnab kangesti ebajumalakummardamise moodi. Koraanist pole mina selget vastust saanud fyysilise koha kohta. Ei ole oeldud ,et palvetades poorake oma naod Jeruusalemma poole. Voi et palvetades poorake oma naod Mekka poole. Ja Mekkat on ometigi Koraanis mainitud.

panen siia tsitaatidena arvamused, milleni erinevad inimesed on joudnud analyysides sonu "al masjid al haram". Tsitaadid siis free-minds foorumist..
http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=15074.30
Quote:
Peace be upon you all,

God most certainly is the focus, however there is no proper IMAGE of "God" we can bring up in our minds, so what we need to do is to ALWAYS HOLD THE IMAGE OF GODLIKE BEHAVIOR" in our minds, always see our persons RESPONDING in the proper way to lifes events, no matter where we are in the world. No one has to travel anywhere to do that, we are all on equal playing field in that regard.

The masjid al haraam...sjd refers to submission and masjid is a place of submission....so masjid al haraam refers to he "place" where we submit to the restrictions(laws).

After pondering that for a long time I have come to realize that this is refering to the subconcious(nafs) which is where all laws are carried out. We are to always "face" this masjid because we should always be putting the proper seeds of behavor into this garden(salaat). We must guard our salaat(programming process).


Quote:
I would like to add by quoting what al-qur'aan has to say about this:

قد نرى تقلب وجهك في السماء فلنولينك قبلة ترضيها فول وجهك شطر المسجد الحرام وحيث ما كنتم فولوا وجوهكم شطره وإن الذين أوتوا الكتب ليعلمون أنه الحق من ربهم وما الله بغفل عما يعملون 2:144

ومن حيث خرجت فول وجهك شطر المسجد الحرام وإنه للحق من ربك وما الله بغفل عما تعملون 2:149

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a "qiblatan"/direction/focal point/target that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.

2:149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.


Here The God clearly explains what "al-masjid al-haraam" is i.e. "al-haqqu min rabbika"/the truth from your Lord, and we are to face towards/orient ourselves to "al-haqqu min rabbika" WHEREVER we are.



http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=11674.0

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=13210.msg110854#msg110854
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tarmo



Joined: 11 Jun 2007
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Posted: 02 Jun 2008 08:29 pm Post subject:

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selles viidatud tekstis toodud mõtte arenduseks, et Jumala tempel või "al-masjid al-haraam" asub meie sees.

Quote:
2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a "qiblatan"/direction/focal point/target that will be pleasing to you: "You shall set yourself towards "al-masjid al-haraam"/the inviolable institution of obedience; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it." Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.


Piibel
1Kr 3:16Eks te tea, et te olete Jumala tempel ja teie sees elab Jumala Vaim?
1Kr 3:17Kui keegi rikub Jumala templi, siis Jumal rikub ka tema, sest Jumala tempel on püha, ja see olete teie.
1Kr 6:19Või kas te ei tea, et teie ihu on teis oleva Püha Vaimu tempel, kelle te olete saanud Jumalalt, ning et teie ei ole iseenese päralt?
2Kr 6:16Kuidas sobib Jumala tempel kokku ebajumalatega? Meie oleme ju elava Jumala tempel, nõnda nagu Jumal on öelnud: "Ma tahan nende seas elada ja käia ja olla nende Jumal, ja nemad on minu rahvas.

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fennek



Joined: 20 May 2007
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Posted: 01 Jul 2008 09:07 pm Post subject:

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2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: “You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.” Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.


Praeguseks olen joudnud arusaamisele, et "sacred temple" ongi "truth".
Ehk siis meie kui moslemite fookuseks voi fokaalpunktiks oleks tode ja sinna suunas peaksime joonduma.

Mitte taeva, mitte ida, mitte laane poole - Jumal on koikjal. Vaid Tõe poole. Ja see on vaimne siht.

2:149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.

Kui see al masgid al haram on TÕDE JUMALALT, siis tõepoolest on voimalik alati, kusiganes me ka poleks, end selles suunas hoida. Ehk siis hoidume keelatust ja kaitume lubatu piires.. Oleme oiglased ja pohimotteliselt jargime islamit..

Kui see kaib monele yle jou, noh, siis voib ka kivikuubiku poole end poorata, ent mida see annab? Mismoodi see teda paremaks muudab? Mismoodi arendab?
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Nektub



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Posted: 02 Jul 2008 11:19 pm Post subject:

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Moned moslemid on Mekast teinud yldse mingi jube maagilise asja,et naiteks Kuu pealt vaadates pidi Mekast mingit erilist valgust paistma
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Nektub



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Posted: 02 Jul 2008 11:23 pm Post subject:

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tarmo wrote:
.

Aga millele tahaks tähelepanu juhtida on Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord.
Need, kellele on varem antud Raamat, palvetavad Jerusalema poole ja ei tea Mekkast mitte midagi.




Minu teada tanapaeval kristlased ei palveta Jeruusalemma poole, aga kes valistab, et nad ei teinud seda varasematel aegadel?
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Nektub



Joined: 16 May 2007
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Posted: 02 Jul 2008 11:27 pm Post subject:

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fennek wrote:
2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you: “You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.” Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what they do"

2:149 And from wherever you go out, you shall set yourself towards the restricted Temple; it is the truth from your Lord; and God is not unaware of what you do.




Kuna koraan selgitab end iseendaga, siis siin teine varss seletab ilusti lahti eelmise, st et milles seisneb see Pyhitsetud Tempel.
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tarmo



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Posted: 29 Jul 2008 12:41 pm Post subject:

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üks koht veel teemasse truth:

17:78 You shall hold the communion at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed.
17:79 And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.
17:80 And say: “My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me exit an exit of truth, and grant me from Yourself a support to victory.”

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fennek



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Posted: 29 Jul 2008 07:13 pm Post subject:

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Nektub wrote:
Moned moslemid on Mekast teinud yldse mingi jube maagilise asja,et naiteks Kuu pealt vaadates pidi Mekast mingit erilist valgust paistma


voimsad prozhektorid ehk? mine tea. voiks moni pilt sellest vahemalt olla. muidu ei oska kaasa raakida.
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fennek



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Posted: 29 Jul 2008 07:23 pm Post subject:

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tarmo wrote:
üks koht veel teemasse truth:

17:78 You shall hold the communion at the setting of the sun until the darkness of the night; and the Qur’an at dawn; the Qur’an at dawn is witnessed.
17:79 And from the night you shall reflect upon it additionally for yourself, perhaps your Lord would grant you to a high rank.
17:80 And say: “My Lord, admit me an entrance of truth and let me exit an exit of truth, and grant me from Yourself a support to victory.”


Need varsid jaid mulle ka endale moni aeg tagasi meelde. 17:80 on vaga ilus varss, mis paistab olevat kasulik oma palvesse sisse panna. voi oigemini, see ongi ju pisike palve Jumalale.

huvitav tegelikult ju moelda et ka adam parast eksimist sai Jumalalt sonad, mida lausudes ta kahetses oma tegu. Koraanist jai korva soovitus palves retsiteerida Koraani. oigeid varsse kokku korjates yle terve koraani peaks paris hea palve teksti kokku saama. (oigeid selles mottes et iga inimene oma olukorrale vastavalt. et mida ta tapselt hetkel koige enam vajab voi soovib.) motlemist vaart teema, mida pyyan lahiajal uurima hakata eks nais mis sellest valja tuleb..

`Ali bin Abu Talhah related that Ibn `Abbas narrated: The first abrogated part in the Qur'an was about the Qiblah. When Allah's Messenger migrated to Al-Madinah, the majority of its people were Jews, and Allah commanded him to face Bayt Al-Maqdis. The Jews were delighted then. Allah's Messenger faced it for ten and some months, but he liked to face the Qiblah of Ibrahim (Ka`bah in Makkah). He used to supplicate to Allah and look up to the sky (awaiting Allah's command). Allah then revealed:

(Verily, We have seen the turning of your (Muhammad's) face towards the heaven), until,

(turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction.)

The Jews did not like this ruling and said:

("What has turned them (Muslims) from their Qiblah (prayer direction) to which they used to face in prayer.'' Say (O Muhammad), "To Allah belong both, east and the west.'') (2:142)

Allah said:

(. ..so wherever you turn (yourselves or your faces) there is the Face of Allah) (2:115),

and:


(And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad ) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e., disobey the Messenger).) (2:143)


Al-Hakim related that `Ali bin Abu Talib said:

(...so turn your face in the direction of Al-Masjid Al-Haram (at Makkah).) means its direction.''

Al-Hakim then commented that the chain of this narration is authentic and that they (i.e., Al-Bukhari and Muslim) did not include it in their collections.

This ruling concerning the Qiblah is also the opinion of Abu Al-`Aliyah, Mujahid, `Ikrimah, Sa`id bin Jubayr, Qatadah, Ar-Rabi` bin Anas and others. Allah's Statement:

(And wheresoever you people are, turn your faces (in prayer) in that direction) is a command from Allah to face the Ka`bah from wherever one is on the earth: the east, west, north or south. The exception is of the voluntary prayer (Nafl) while one is traveling, for one is allowed to offer it in any direction his body is facing, while his heart is intending the Ka`bah. Also, when the battle is raging, one is allowed to offer prayer, however he is able. Also, included are those who are not sure of the direction and offer prayer in the wrong direction, thinking that it is the direction of the Qiblah, because Allah does not burden a soul beyond what it can bear.

Allah stated that:

(Certainly, the people who were given the Scripture (i.e., Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka`bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord.)

This Ayah means: The Jews, who did not like that you change your Qiblah from Bayt Al-Maqdis, already knew that Allah will command you (O Muhammad) to face the Ka`bah. The Jews read in their Books their Prophets' description of Allah's Messenger and his Ummah, and that Allah has endowed and honored him with the complete and honorable legislation. Yet, the People of the Book deny these facts because of their envy, disbelief and rebellion. This is why Allah threatened them when He said:

(And Allah is not unaware of what they do.)

haditite pealetung ?

Pigem õiguse pealetung!

M. kirjutas:

Pigem õiguse pealetung!

M. kirjutas:

`Ali bin Abu Talhah related that Ibn `Abbas narrated ...

39:44 Ütle: "Jumalale kuulub kogu eestkostmine." Temale kuulub suveräänsus taevastes ja Maa peal, siis Tema juurde lähete tagasi.


Kelle juurde sina M. tagasi lähed? Kas Ali bin Abu Talhah või Ibn `Abbas juurde?
Kelle eestkostel sina oled?


peace!

M. kirjutas:

Pigem õiguse pealetung!

Ok. oigus peaks tuleproovile vastu pidama?

Need Koraani tolked, mida oled tsiteerinud, on paksult muid jutukesi tais topitud. Miks moonutas tolkija Jumala sona nii raigelt et lisas sellele omaenda oletused (kyll sulgudes) juurde? Miks ei usalda tolkija et Jumal ja AINULT voib lugejale toe katte juhatada?

2:142 The foolish from amongst the people will say: “What has turned them away from the focal point that they were on?” Say: “To God is the east and the west, He guides whomsoever He wishes to a straight path.”

miks ei usalda tolkija Jumalat ja arvab et temal on kohustus pakkuda Jumala sonale omi arvamusi ja oletusi et inimesed temamoodi seda moistaksid? Miks arvavad tolkijad et inimesed on nii rumalad ja et Jumal ei pea oma lubadust ega juhata neid moistmiseni?

Tsiteerin: :

Ali bin Abu Talhah related that Ibn `Abbas narrated

Tsiteerin: :

Al-Hakim related that `Ali bin Abu Talib said

naised saunas raakisid.. Leena mallele, malle liisule, liisu marile jne jne.
Muideks need parimusketid olid 7-8 inimest pikad. Kus on ylejaanud lylid? Miks sa teised vaidetavad "sonumi edastajad" valja jatsid?
Jumal teab, kas need mehed tott raakisid voi yldse eksisteerisid. Need voisid vabalt olla valjamoeldud tegelased ja tanapaeval ei toesta mitte millegagi seda ara.

Tsiteerin: :

Allah said:

..so wherever you turn (yourselves or your faces) there is the Face of Allah (2:115),

and:


And We made the Qiblah (prayer direction towards Jerusalem) which you used to face, only to test those who followed the Messenger (Muhammad ) from those who would turn on their heels (i.e., disobey the Messenger). (2:143)

Tsiteerin: :

Allah stated that:

Certainly, the people who were given the Scripture (i.e., Jews and the Christians) know well that, that (your turning towards the direction of the Ka`bah at Makkah in prayers) is the truth from their Lord.

Valetad. See sulgudes olev krempel on tolkija oma fantaasia vili. Jumal pole seda oelnud. Tolkija lisab oletusi ja oma arvamusi Jumala sonaga segi. See on kuritegu!
See et tolkija mingit oma fantaasiat (mida Jumal talle ei ilmutanud vaid mida ta kylajuttude kaudu kuulis) Jumala sonaga segab, ei tee tema fantaasialennust automaatselt tode! 53:28 While they had no knowledge about this; they only followed conjecture. And conjecture is no substitute for the truth. ja enamus inimesi jargivad selliseid valetajaid ja nende oletusi ilma selle yle pikemalt motlemata:

10:36 Most of them only follow conjecture. While conjecture does not avail against the truth in anything. God is aware of what they do

Ei saa yle ega ymber faktist, et need hadithid on ja jaavad vaid oletusteks. Meil ei ole muud voimalust tanapaeval nende toesust kindlaks teha, kui ainult siis kui Jumal konkreetselt ilmutuse saadaks. Jumala sona on loplik, selles on koik olemas ja kes otsib midagi sellest valjastpoolt, siis vastaku parem Jumala kysimusele:

45:6 Need on Jumala ilmutused, mida Me retsiteerime teile tõega. Seega, millisesse HADITHISSE peale Jumala ja Tema ilmutuste nad usuvad?

Vaata, mis Jumal raagib neist, kes valesid Jumala nimel ja Jumala kohta edastavad
3:78 And from amongst them is a group that twist their tongues with the Scripture so that you may think it is from the Scripture, while it is not from the Scripture, and they say it is from God while it is not from God, and they say about God lies while they know.
3:94 Whoever invents lies about God after this, these are the wicked.

7:37 Who is more wicked than one who invents lies about God, or denies His revelations? These will receive their recompense from the record; so that when Our messengers come to terminate their lives, they will say: “Where are those whom you used to call on besides God?” they said: “They have abandoned us!” and they bore witness upon themselves that they were rejecters.
61:7 Who is more evil than one who fabricates lies about God, while he is being invited to submission? God does not guide the evil people.

Inimesed, kes motlevad valja valesid Jumala kohta, jaavad juhatusest ilma.

on teada et prohveti ajal juba sooviti muid lugusid peale koraani voi et prohvet koraani muudaks:

10:15 And when Our clear revelations are recited to them, those who do not wish to meet Us said: “Bring a Qur’an other than this, or change it!” Say: “It is not for me to change it of my own accord, I merely follow what is inspired to me. I fear, if I disobey my Lord, the retribution of a great day!”

Miks nad ei õpi Koraani hoolega? Kui see oleks kelleltki teiselt kui Jumalalt, oleksid nad sellest leidnud arvukalt vastuolusid 4:82

Jumal on ilmutanud selles parimad hadithid; raamat, mis on vastuoludeta ja näitab ette mõlemad teed. Nende nahad, kes austavad Jumalat, tõmbuvad tagasi, siis aga muutuvad nende nahad pehmeks ja samuti nende südamed pehmenevad Jumala sõnumit kuuldes. Selline on Jumala juhatus. Ta rikastab neid kes seda soovivad. Mis puutub neisse, kes on läinud eemale, siis neid ei juhi miski 39:23

Rahva hulgas on neid, kes hoiavad alal alusetuid haditheid ja seega juhivad teisi Jumala rajalt ilma teadmisteta ja võtavad seda tühiselt. Nad on ära teeninud häbiväärse karistuse 31:6

45:6 Need on Jumala ilmutused, mida Me retsiteerime teile tõega. Seega, millisesse HADITHISSE peale Jumala ja Tema ilmutuste nad usuvad?

45:7 Häda igale patusele valevorstile
12:111 Nende ajaloos on õppetund neile, kes omavad intelligentsi. See pole väljamõeldud hadith, see kinnitab kõik eelmised kirjutised, annab kõige kohta üksikasjad ja on majakaks ja halastuseks neile, kes usuvad.

77:50 Millist hadithit peale selle nad usuvad?

M. kirjutas:

`Ali bin Abu Talhah related that Ibn `Abbas narrated: ...

2:166 When those who were followed will disown those who followed them, and they will see the retribution, and all excuses have abandoned them.
2:167 And those who followed them said: “If we only could have a chance to disown them as they have disowned us.” It is such that God will show them their works which will be regretted by them; they will not leave the Fire.

Natuke mõtlemiseks

35:40 Say: Have you considered your associates which you call upon besides Allah? Show me what part of the earth they have created, or have they any share in the heavens; or, have We given them a book so that they follow a clear argument thereof?

7:146 I will divert from My signs those who are arrogant on earth unjustly,....

7:194 Those whom you call on besides God are servants like you,....

35:40 Say: Have you considered your associates which you call upon besides Allah? Show me what part of the earth they have created, or have they any share in the heavens; or, have We given them a book so that they follow a clear argument thereof?

isegi kui vaga tahaks, ei saa kuidagi vaita et hadithiraamatud oleksid olnud Jumala poolt ilmutatud, kuna need olid kokku kogutud inimeste omal initsiatiivil (ei ole kuulnud, et keegi oleks olnud nagu tegu oleks olnud Jumala korraldusega voi nagu moni kirjapanijatest oleks Jumalalt vastava korralduse saanud) ja toe valest eraldamiseks kasutasid nad mingit oma valjamoeldud meetodit, (parimusketid ja nende kuulujutuline usaldusvaarsus - miks kuulujutuline? sest keti esimesed 5-6 lyli olid kokkukogumise hetkeks juba mulla all), kusjuures raigelt ignoreeriti Jumala korraldust: moista kohut sellega, mille Jumal oli alla saatnud. Kriteeriumiks votta Jumala raamat..

5:48 And We have sent down to you the Scripture with truth, authenticating what is present of the Scripture and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, and a structure; and had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you; so strive to do good. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.
5:49 And judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their wishes, and beware lest they divert you away from some of what God has sent down to you. If they turn away, then know that God wants to inflict them with some of their sins; and most of the people are corrupt.
5.44 ...And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the rejecters
5:45 .. And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the wicked.
5:47 ..And whoever does not judge with what God has sent down, then these are the vile ones

Kui hadithite sisu oleks hinnatud "sellega, mille JUMAL alla saatis" ehk Koraaniga, siis enamus neist tol ajal kokku kogutud hadithitest autentseks kuulutatutest, langevad korvale kui oletused, millele Koraan kinnitust ei anna. Loppude lopuks: Jumal on meile andnud kirjutise, mis on detailideni yksikasjalik. Selles on KOIK detailid olemas Koraanis. Vaita et moned vajalikd detailid on puudu, vordub sona otseses mottes uskmatusega - need inimesed, kes vaidavad et vajalikud elemendid on puudu, ei usu Jumala sona:

6:114 “Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this Scripture fully detailed?” Those to whom We have given the Scripture know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

Seega arge kahelge, vaid uskuge!
Ja kesiganes ei moista kohut sellega, mis Jumal on alla saatnud, on eemaletoukajad/uskmatud ja kurjad.

Jap. Jumal ise ütleb, et kes Tema sõnumeid eiravad, on uskmatud:

29:47 Indeed, those who disregard our revelations are the real disbelievers.

Mõelge nüüd, kas on ehk veel sõnumeid koraanis tänapäeval, mida mõned moslemid eiravad. Näiteks see, mida kuulnud olen ja millest siin foorumis juttu on olnud hiljuti, et arvatakse, et mõned värsid pole tänapäeval enam kehtivad - et Jumal on need asendanud muu seadusega. (kuigi teine värss ütleb konkreetselt, et Jumal oma seadust ei asenda/muuda)

48:23 Such is God's way with those who have passed away before, and you will not find any change in God's way.

2:144 We see the shifting of your face towards the sky; We will thus set for you a focal point that will be pleasing to you
(: “You shall set yourself towards the Sacred Temple; and wherever you may be, you shall all set yourselves towards it.” Those who have been given the Scripture know it is the truth from their Lord. And God is not unaware of what you do.)

Me näeme, et te pöörate oma nägusi taeva poole - Me seame teile siis focal pointi, mis teile meeldib.

Kui prostrate nii nagu me siin oleme rääkinud, et lõug maas. Kui nüüd sellest asendist püsti tõusta ja pea asend samaks jätta, siis on ka nägu taeva poole.

Mina olen aru saanud selliselt, et "nägu taeva poole" on mainitud kriitika mõttes, sellel on alatoon sees, et nii ei peaks tegema, sest sel pole mõtet, kui Jumal on ju igal pool - eelkõige seal, kus on tõde üldises mõttes. Misasi on taevas üleüldse? Miks me peame otse enda "üles" kosmosesse vaatama, kui Jumalaga suhelda tahame? Isegi terminit "üleval" või "all" universumi mõttes ju ei eksisteeri. "Taevasse" pööravad oma näo paljud usklikud juba aastatuhandeid ja minu meelest seda see värss taunibki. Öeldud on, et selle asemel oleme teie näo suunanud tõe poole või siis fookuspunkti, misiganes tõlge kellelegi kõige loogilisem on.

kui põlvili ja kummardades salatiks on antud juhised kuidas pead hoida ja veel viisil, mis ei ole kõige lihtsam võimalikest variantidest, siis ilmselt on sel ka mingi põhjus.
miks peaks püstises asendis salatis pea asend teistsugune olema? ehk näitatakse just nii pea asend kätte...
nagu Jumal ei ole loonud midagi niisama, ei anna ta ka mõtetuid juhiseid.
44:38 And We have not created the heavens and the Earth, and everything between them, for mere play.
inimese keha on väga keeruline asi. teatavad asendid võivad esile kutsuda teatavaid protsesse, võib vallanduda mingite ensüümide tootmine või mida iganes mida me ei tea. nt ega jooga ka päris mõtetu kehaväänamine pole.

praegu tundub see õige mõttesuund olevat aga ma ei väida ka midagi...

Hannah kirjutas:

Öeldud on, et selle asemel

ei ole nii öeldud

tarmo kirjutas:

Hannah kirjutas:

Öeldud on, et selle asemel

ei ole nii öeldud

No jah, jätsin lisamata, et mina isiklikult saan nii aru asjast. Minu jaoks on see loogiline. Ma ei saa teha midagi, millest ma aru ei saa ja ma ei usu, et Jumal on ka lasknud meil teha midagi, millest me aru ei saa. Siis poleks ju nagu üldse mõtet seda teha.

Hannah kirjutas:

Ma ei saa teha midagi, millest ma aru ei saa ja ma ei usu, et Jumal on ka lasknud meil teha midagi, millest me aru ei saa. Siis poleks ju nagu üldse mõtet seda teha.

aga palvetad sa ju lõua peal. kuskil kirjutasid. kas sa saad aru, miks sa just nii teed? (peale selle, et nii Koraanis kirjas on, aga miks on?)

Hmm, tegelikult ma ei palveta nii enam. Just sellel põhjusel, et ma pole kindel, miks ma seda tegema pean. Veel enam, ma pole isegi kindel, et üldse seda tegema peab. Aga küll ma välja nuputan

kui midagi valja nuputad, siis anna teada Jaan huviga ootele

Hannah kirjutas:

Hmm, tegelikult ma ei palveta nii enam. Just sellel põhjusel, et ma pole kindel, miks ma seda tegema pean.

aga sarnaselt, kas oled kindel, miks sa pead kneel and prostrate?

tarmo kirjutas:

Hannah kirjutas:

Hmm, tegelikult ma ei palveta nii enam. Just sellel põhjusel, et ma pole kindel, miks ma seda tegema pean.

aga sarnaselt, kas oled kindel, miks sa pead kneel and prostrate?

Oot, ma ei saanud küsimusest aru... Et kas ma olen kindel, et pean kneelima ja prostratima? Ei ole kindel Seepärast ma seda ka ei tee praegu. Loon kontaktpalve Jumalaga mõttes, keskendudes, vaikses rahulikus õhkkonnas.

ma ei möelnud, et kas peab vaid et kui peab, siis miks.
aga ok.
mis sa arvad sellisest salmist:

48:29 Mohammed is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are severe against the rejecters, but merciful between themselves. You see them kneeling and prostrating, they seek God's blessings and approval. Their distinction is in their faces, as a result of prostrating. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a plant which shoots out and becomes strong and thick and it stands straight on its trunk, pleasing to the farmers. That He may enrage the rejecters with them. God promises those among them who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

Ma ei oska sellest midagi hetkel arvata. Ma tõesti ei tea, kas see kneeling ja prostrating ongi need, mida me arvame ja kui nii, siis miks? Miks on vaja põlvitada, kaela väänata, nägu ja käsi konkreetses asendis hoida jne. Ma ei näe siin loogikat. Seda võib väga vabalt olla ka mõeldud ülekantud sümboolses tähenduses. Umbes nagu "te näete neid olevat alandlikult pühendunud oma palvusele", sest nii põlvitamine kui ka prostrate ju tähendavad mõlemad alandlikkust tõlkes (sümboolses tähenduses).

Hannah kirjutas:

Umbes nagu "te näete neid olevat alandlikult pühendunud oma palvusele", sest nii põlvitamine kui ka prostrate ju tähendavad mõlemad alandlikkust tõlkes (sümboolses tähenduses).

kuidas alandlikkus nt järgnevas olukorras silmaga nähtav on?:

Tsiteerin: :

Loon kontaktpalve Jumalaga mõttes

millised võiksid olla need eraldusmärgid näos (peale padja kuju ), mis on alandlikkuse tulemusel tekkinud, mille järgi nad ära tuntavad on?

mõned mõtted

38:24 He said: “He has wronged you by asking to combine your lamb with his lambs. And many who mix their properties take advantage of one another, except those who believe and do good works, and these are very few.” And David guessed that We had tested him, so he sought forgiveness from his Lord, and fell down kneeling, and repented.

77:47 Woe on that Day to the disbelievers!
77:48 And when they are told to kneel, they do not kneel.